Slays and Assassinates

[Simon]

Personally I have over my time used slays for one of two reasons:

a) To chew up some defenses or self healing from dumping about 1,000 points into the monster.

b) clear cutting small critters with more hit points than I have time or care to deal with...to include casters.

To be clear...getting behind lines and killing a BBG's backpack can be a critical key to getting the BBG himself. On a lower level this helps people hold a back line from the few flanker monsters allowing the horde or PC's to focus forward.

Eviscerates are obviously different mind you because you know there are only ever three results...and soaking it is not a possibility...but in general there are strategies for slays though in full disclosure I do not have any as my main now. (Then again I have Dragons Breaths for that)

Joe Siegel

 

[jpariury]

Eviscerates are obviously different mind you because you know there are only ever three results...and soaking it is not a possibility...

Oregon and Seattle have implemented "Giant monster rules" as a specific implementation of "reduced damage" rules, essentially treating Eviscerates as large amounts of damage (500 or 1000), so soaking is a possibility.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

I wonder... how strong would Eviscerate have to be in fixed damage to make it a worthwhile addition to Slay for those who are buying PTDs? Double current Slay damage? 100 damage per Eviscerate purchased? Apply a Destruction effect, plus damage?

 

[Draven]

I wonder... how strong would Eviscerate have to be in fixed damage to make it a worthwhile addition to Slay for those who are buying PTDs? Double current Slay damage? 100 damage per Eviscerate purchased? Apply a Destruction effect, plus damage?

Mathematically speaking, if it becomes fixed damage, it will inevitably be outstripped by Slay.

A better question might be "How much fixed damage is balanced against 5 BP with a pre-req of 60 BP, assuming fighter?"

 

[Lurin]

It's pretty common in my next of the woods to have alternate effects on the big bads, "Takes 500 from Eviserate/Terminate" etc. but we usually don't do that for the small beasties if possible.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

I wonder... how strong would Eviscerate have to be in fixed damage to make it a worthwhile addition to Slay for those who are buying PTDs? Double current Slay damage? 100 damage per Eviscerate purchased? Apply a Destruction effect, plus damage?

Mathematically speaking, if it becomes fixed damage, it will inevitably be outstripped by Slay.

A better question might be "How much fixed damage is balanced against 5 BP with a pre-req of 60 BP, assuming fighter?"

Sorry, I meant fixed damage in the sense that the character using the Eviscerate knows how much damage it'll be doing before swinging as opposed to it being dependent on the Body of the target as it currently is. The options I described were all things that would generate a fixed number as opposed to simply being a straight KO.

 

[Agnar]

When I was a fighter I had 24 PTD skills (slays, disarms, stun limbs, eviscerates). If I was lucky maybe 5 worked (weren't phased, dodged, parried, reduced) on NPCs on any given game day. They always worked on Berserk PCs though.
As a fighter or rogue you are much better off taking all the uses of Parry, Evade, Dodge, and Riposte that you can. Every once in a while there will be a BBG ( e.g.: the Brute in NJ) that you wish you had certain PTDs for, but 99% of the time you are better off with defensive skills and constant use skills (Prof and Back stab).

-Steve

 

[Gilwing]

I wonder... how strong would Eviscerate have to be in fixed damage to make it a worthwhile addition to Slay for those who are buying PTDs? Double current Slay damage? 100 damage per Eviscerate purchased? Apply a Destruction effect, plus damage?

Mathematically speaking, if it becomes fixed damage, it will inevitably be outstripped by Slay.

A better question might be "How much fixed damage is balanced against 5 BP with a pre-req of 60 BP, assuming fighter?"

Sorry, I meant fixed damage in the sense that the character using the Eviscerate knows how much damage it'll be doing before swinging as opposed to it being dependent on the Body of the target as it currently is. The options I described were all things that would generate a fixed number as opposed to simply being a straight KO.

I couldn't agree more with this. If I don't know how much damage an Eviscerate does, why would I keep doing it? If its doing 250 great. Then I will try and burn its parries with my slays first if the amount is lower. If chapters are going to change the rules and functionally of a skill, it should be stated what exactly it does, not just "alternate effect".

 

[Draven]

Prepare to Die: two-hundred-fifty eviscerate! two-hundred-fifty eviscerate! two-hundred-fifty eviscerate!

That's way too many syllables.

 

[tieran]

What about making an eviscerate do an amount of damage equal to double (triple, quadruple) your normal slay damage or 4 (8, 12) "steps" up the slay ladder?

So if you had 5 slays you'd be looking at eviscerate doing either 220 (330, 440) or 190 (250, 330), depending on which option.

That way it still scales with level (assuming you buy slays), will kill "little" stuff and wouldn't require extra defenses to prevent a guy from getting evis'd into the ground on a single swing.

 

[Gilwing]

Prepare to Die: two-hundred-fifty eviscerate! two-hundred-fifty eviscerate! two-hundred-fifty eviscerate!

That's way too many syllables.

What I was talking about is when chapters want there baddies to not take an eviscerate but instead take a large amount of damage. These chapters must (in my eyes) say how much it does at logistics or say so oog so that people know this.

By the way try saying one-hundred-fifty silver slay...same thing.

 

[Lurin]

Prepare to Die: two-hundred-fifty eviscerate! two-hundred-fifty eviscerate! two-hundred-fifty eviscerate!

That's way too many syllables.

What I was talking about is when chapters want there baddies to not take an eviscerate but instead take a large amount of damage. These chapters must (in my eyes) say how much it does at logistics or say so oog so that people know this.

By the way try saying one-hundred-fifty silver slay...same thing.

You are welcome to push this change, but consider this, if monster decks can't convert instant kills to damage, they'll simply have to add more layers of defense. So instead of taking out a fourth of uber bad guy in one hit, you get a phase/parry/dodge call. Which one is better assuming it takes the same number of insta-gib skills to down the Big bad?

Similarly, I would be under the assumption that monster desks keep the damage taken from such calls comparatively high based on their APL. 250 is a BIG deal in SoMN, most of the big fighters swing ten, and our slays/assasinates are usually topped out at 70 or so. Now if Havoc was coming to play, then the BBG might need to take double, or triple that for the damage to stay relevant in the face of swings of 25 and 210 slays.

Scaling the damage might also not be done in such a linear fashion, the BBEH (Big bad evil helper) might be designed to take 750 from eviserates out of his 1000 body, where the BBEG himself might take less because he's supposed to be harder to take down, add a flat number to be announced at logistics does not seem very helpful in my eyes.

 

[Gilwing]

Prepare to Die: two-hundred-fifty eviscerate! two-hundred-fifty eviscerate! two-hundred-fifty eviscerate!

That's way too many syllables.

What I was talking about is when chapters want there baddies to not take an eviscerate but instead take a large amount of damage. These chapters must (in my eyes) say how much it does at logistics or say so oog so that people know this.

By the way try saying one-hundred-fifty silver slay...same thing.

You are welcome to push this change, but consider this, if monster decks can't convert instant kills to damage, they'll simply have to add more layers of defense. So instead of taking out a fourth of uber bad guy in one hit, you get a phase/parry/dodge call. Which one is better assuming it takes the same number of insta-gib skills to down the Big bad?

Similarly, I would be under the assumption that monster desks keep the damage taken from such calls comparatively high based on their APL. 250 is a BIG deal in SoMN, most of the big fighters swing ten, and our slays/assasinates are usually topped out at 70 or so. Now if Havoc was coming to play, then the BBG might need to take double, or triple that for the damage to stay relevant in the face of swings of 25 and 210 slays.

Scaling the damage might also not be done in such a linear fashion, the BBEH (Big bad evil helper) might be designed to take 750 from eviserates out of his 1000 body, where the BBEG himself might take less because he's supposed to be harder to take down, add a flat number to be announced at logistics does not seem very helpful in my eyes.

I understand where you are coming from Dave. It just doesn't follow any thing else that other damage does. Reduced, I know I'm doing half damage; Minimal, I know I'm doing 1 point. 150 slay, I know how much that is but Eviscerate? So to one guy it's some % of damage but a different % to another?

 

[Lurin]

Depending on how monster desk writes up the card, potentially, it depends on your chapter. I can understand how it could be irritating to not know the exact comparision, IE how many of my flame blasts did I save with that eviserate etc.

 

[Dom]

I think of things like slays and eviscerates more as crowd control than the way to kill the big bad. An eviscerate stops a rift count. A friend falls behind enemy lines and you need to get to them quick, start dropping slays.

 

[Tyson]

This is why I liked the idea of creature tiers (lesser, greater, etc) and having more effects be tied to that. So a Slay or Assassinate doesn't need a damage number, it's going to kill a lesser creature outright and do X damage to a greater creature. Eviscerates and Terminates will kill a greater creature, but "boss tier" monsters take Y damage from them.

This lets certain monsters not getting 1-shot by an eviscerate be a standard thing by the rules, and not up to the whim of each plot team. It also makes your first Slay something special, because it doesn't require Slays 2 through 5 to bring the damage up to something meaningful.

 

[Zen Mallowbrooks]

I understand where you are coming from Dave. It just doesn't follow any thing else that other damage does. Reduced, I know I'm doing half damage; Minimal, I know I'm doing 1 point. 150 slay, I know how much that is but Eviscerate? So to one guy it's some % of damage but a different % to another?

I don't think this is quite right. I can't count the number of times I've seen monsters take damage from static effects such as shun, web, destruction, what-have-you with the"appears to harm me" call. That doesn't tell exactly how effective it is, yet I've never heard anyone really complain about it. I know that when I hear that call, I get excited for it because I know that the card wouldn't be statted like that without a reason. I think the same applies to the eviscerate and terminate effects.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

I understand where you are coming from Dave. It just doesn't follow any thing else that other damage does. Reduced, I know I'm doing half damage; Minimal, I know I'm doing 1 point. 150 slay, I know how much that is but Eviscerate? So to one guy it's some % of damage but a different % to another?

I don't think this is quite right. I can't count the number of times I've seen monsters take damage from static effects such as shun, web, destruction, what-have-you with the"appears to harm me" call. That doesn't tell exactly how effective it is, yet I've never heard anyone really complain about it. I know that when I hear that call, I get excited for it because I know that the card wouldn't be statted like that without a reason. I think the same applies to the eviscerate and terminate effects.

Disagree. If I throw a Web and it damages something, I will note that that is unusual. If I Eviscerate something and it damages something, well, no kidding. That's what it's supposed to do. Except it's clearly supposed to do MORE, if you land an Eviscerate and your target gets hurt but not dropped. Web (shun, destruction, etc.) doing damage could be exciting, could be beneficial and is at least different enough to allow for nonstandard tactics. Eviscerate doing a set amount of damage is never anything but getting less than what I paid for.

 

[tets]

I understand where you are coming from Dave. It just doesn't follow any thing else that other damage does. Reduced, I know I'm doing half damage; Minimal, I know I'm doing 1 point. 150 slay, I know how much that is but Eviscerate? So to one guy it's some % of damage but a different % to another?

I don't think this is quite right. I can't count the number of times I've seen monsters take damage from static effects such as shun, web, destruction, what-have-you with the"appears to harm me" call. That doesn't tell exactly how effective it is, yet I've never heard anyone really complain about it. I know that when I hear that call, I get excited for it because I know that the card wouldn't be statted like that without a reason. I think the same applies to the eviscerate and terminate effects.

Disagree. If I throw a Web and it damages something, I will note that that is unusual. If I Eviscerate something and it damages something, well, no kidding. That's what it's supposed to do. Except it's clearly supposed to do MORE, if you land an Eviscerate and your target gets hurt but not dropped. Web (shun, destruction, etc.) doing damage could be exciting, could be beneficial and is at least different enough to allow for nonstandard tactics. Eviscerate doing a set amount of damage is never anything but getting less than what I paid for.

This is a very good point. The next question is though, would you rather have a defense called against your eviscerate or know it did at least some amount of damage? This is where i see a lot of people divided.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

It's not a bad question. The answer is: often the best way to kill a major enemy is to run them out of defensive abilities rather than try and deplete their body. If a big bad has 5 dodges and five hundred body, I can kill him more easily by dumping six assorted TKOs into him than wear down that much body, especially if he's healing. Effectively I can consider his dodges to be a secondary health pool that I can opt to attack instead, with various skills and spells doing one point of damage to this secondary health. Depending on the monster's type, finding 6 options that can defeat him in one shot may be far, far easier than trying to wear down all that body. Prison works on almost everything, so that's a good choice. Undead have a lot of immunities, but are in turn vulnerable to Purify (and Drain can be an option for necro-curious characters). Sleep, Paralysis, Death and basically the Alteration effect group will shut down anything with a metabolism, and Web/Confine work very well on things that can't rip free, plus combine well with debilitating weapon strikes. Which brings us back to Eviscerate/Terminate. It obviously depends on how much damage the altered effect yields, but given how many things can trigger a dodge (or phase, or parry, or cloak, or whatever), I would often rather hear the defense called than "I took non-lethal damage, lemme get my heal on."