Spells and Levels

phedre said:
Claws are 10 build? 8 build? For that much build, especially for a low level character, I think the claw skill should stay as is.
8 build.

Honestly, when I said maybe Shatter should be a Disarm on claws, I was thinking equivalent of a Disarm against a spirit-linked weapon (so behind your back, but you don't lose the phys rep).

And, honestly, I am torn. Is 8 build a big enough expenditure that it should include "Immune Disarm and Immune Shatter" or is "Immune Disarm and Reduced Effect Shatter/Destroy" good enough? There aren't a lot of comparable skills to really make that cost determination.

-MS
 
Claws can't be long sword length for PC's.

Until they are there is no reason to raise the build cost, short swords are a significant step down from long weapons.
 
Dreamingfurther said:
Claws can't be long sword length for PC's.

Until they are there is no reason to raise the build cost, short swords are a significant step down from long weapons.
I don't think anyone was discussing increasing the cost of claws. I was discussing mildly decreasing the value of the skill (and also the benefit of the word "claws" on monster cards) by slightly INCREASING the strength of the Shatter / Destroy spells (and arguably the Shatter PTD skill).

-MS
 

Avaran

Baron
Dreamingfurther said:
The thing about 'raising' the level of Magic Armor. Is that it really varies in quality with level. Like in the lower level games Cure Wounds is totally viable and Magic Armor is hardly useful since you won't see nearly as many slays, evicerates, things swinging 20+, and carriers that 'require' Magic Armor's...

Evocation, AND Healing for that matter are imho the two big things only that are left that don't scale well with the high levels. I think we are 'really' close to having a very sweet system that actually does scale from low to high levels very awesomely, with the exception of the fixed number spells.

My hope is that we could do something to 'simply' the name, add the numbers to the spells so the names don't require you to remember the numbers, and then because you are calling the numbers have some way for the number of the spell to 'scale' fairly reasonably as you get a wider and wider column. Ideally that would accomplish both a simplification and balance fix all in one sweet shot.

I actually agree with this. :thumbsup:
 

SkollWolfrun

Squire
Oregon Staff
Avaran said:
Dreamingfurther said:
The thing about 'raising' the level of Magic Armor. Is that it really varies in quality with level. Like in the lower level games Cure Wounds is totally viable and Magic Armor is hardly useful since you won't see nearly as many slays, evicerates, things swinging 20+, and carriers that 'require' Magic Armor's...

Evocation, AND Healing for that matter are imho the two big things only that are left that don't scale well with the high levels. I think we are 'really' close to having a very sweet system that actually does scale from low to high levels very awesomely, with the exception of the fixed number spells.

My hope is that we could do something to 'simply' the name, add the numbers to the spells so the names don't require you to remember the numbers, and then because you are calling the numbers have some way for the number of the spell to 'scale' fairly reasonably as you get a wider and wider column. Ideally that would accomplish both a simplification and balance fix all in one sweet shot.

I actually agree with this. :thumbsup:
Evidently I must be getting into the wrong fights, because Magic Armor tends to be one of the only things that keeps me alive in at least 1 instance per weekend event.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
mikestrauss said:
Dreamingfurther said:
Claws can't be long sword length for PC's.

Until they are there is no reason to raise the build cost, short swords are a significant step down from long weapons.
I don't think anyone was discussing increasing the cost of claws. I was discussing mildly decreasing the value of the skill (and also the benefit of the word "claws" on monster cards) by slightly INCREASING the strength of the Shatter / Destroy spells (and arguably the Shatter PTD skill).

-MS
I'm cool with the idea of decreasing the value of claws as long as the skill cost is decreased to match. Claws are designed to be the ultra reliable knife in your inventory. Can't be negatively affected, can't be ritually augmented.
 
The reason that Spell Shield in particular is so valuable is that it stops any spell, and most spells stop you. That seems obvious, but there are a proliferation of KO effects (here I go again) that make it so that the goal of spell casting (or gas throwing, etc.) is to land a disabling hit as soon as possible, because no other strategy is viable. You cannot play to whittle down your enemies if they can straight out kill you first.

This is, in my opinion, the source of the premium value of "didn't happen" and "I fix it" skills, spells and effects. The promotion of Purify was, I think, the moment I started questioning the absolute nature of many of our effects. The fact that a panacea was basically needed suggests that it is too easy to cripple someone in our system. The stacking of defensives is a direct result of this.
 
Right at this point the 'whittling down' of someone to gradually overcome them with spells is just beating through all their various spell defensives.
 
Certainly. The thing is, it's basically just an arms race. At 4th level, playing a templar, I could pin a goblin and then fight its friend one on one. I could weakness an ogre, and then fight it on more equal terms. I could disarm an orc when it goes for its slay. I could make a nuisance of myself in battle against some nasty undead by hitting it with cure disease, buying time for others to get help. At low levels, the game is far more about out maneuvering enemies, catching them where they're weak or making a weakness if they haven't one. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing at 30th level also, but I sometimes wish that fights could be more than each side rushing to KO the other side's biggest and baddest because everyone's toting a dozen or three kill shots and defenses to match.

I would so much rather have a variety of options that weaken but don't drop people so that on a mod when we burst in on the lich and his minions, our conversation about tactics isn't "We have 18 purifies and 13 prisons, so let's burn his cloak earths and use the prisons for the other guys."
 

markusdark

Knight
I remember way back in the day (pre-split) there was a year there where spell casters were allowed to cast 'on the fly' - that is to say, they had X number of 4th level spells and could, at the time of casting, decide which 4th level spell they wanted to cast.

This didn't last long so I'm assuming that there was a reason it didn't stay in. Either that or my local chapter at the time did something hinky being the only NERO chapter west of the Rockies.
 

ALWEASEL

Artisan
Hi All.
I used to play a earth caster. I usually played a healer with as many CLW as i could get. But i ran into a problem when i started to hit spell level 6-7.
There is just not enough healing to get some people from 0 to full. There really needs to be more spells or raise the numbers a bit. I couldn't get the volume of spells i wanted. I would CLW them and they would be down again before i turn around.
I had as many cure spells and a few binding, repel type spells. But the binding and webbing was being ripped through in a few seconds and started becoming less effective in my eyes.
I do believe something needs to be done with healing.
Thanks
Al
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
ALWEASEL said:
Hi All.
I used to play a earth caster. I usually played a healer with as many CLW as i could get. But i ran into a problem when i started to hit spell level 6-7.
There is just not enough healing to get some people from 0 to full. There really needs to be more spells or raise the numbers a bit. I couldn't get the volume of spells i wanted. I would CLW them and they would be down again before i turn around.
I had as many cure spells and a few binding, repel type spells. But the binding and webbing was being ripped through in a few seconds and started becoming less effective in my eyes.
I do believe something needs to be done with healing.
Thanks
Al
I will 100% agree with you that it takes so much healing to bring people back up to full. I still think that if a character has more then 6hr of sleep they should be at full body when they wake up. I guess that the + and - to it all; I can run full speed, be fast and chipper with 1 body as I am with 50 all while staying at 1 body for ever if I never received 1 ounce of healing.

As for the binding and ripping comment. A teammate and I took out an uber npc with several binding spells and backstabs. So what he ripped at every one I threw at him, I just kept chucking while my teammate stabbed away.
 

SkollWolfrun

Squire
Oregon Staff
Gilwing said:
ALWEASEL said:
Hi All.
I used to play a earth caster. I usually played a healer with as many CLW as i could get. But i ran into a problem when i started to hit spell level 6-7.
There is just not enough healing to get some people from 0 to full. There really needs to be more spells or raise the numbers a bit. I couldn't get the volume of spells i wanted. I would CLW them and they would be down again before i turn around.
I had as many cure spells and a few binding, repel type spells. But the binding and webbing was being ripped through in a few seconds and started becoming less effective in my eyes.
I do believe something needs to be done with healing.
Thanks
Al
I will 100% agree with you that it takes so much healing to bring people back up to full. I still think that if a character has more then 6hr of sleep they should be at full body when they wake up. I guess that the + and - to it all; I can run full speed, be fast and chipper with 1 body as I am with 50 all while staying at 1 body for ever if I never received 1 ounce of healing.

As for the binding and ripping comment. A teammate and I took out an uber npc with several binding spells and backstabs. So what he ripped at every one I threw at him, I just kept chucking while my teammate stabbed away.
Personally, something alchemical in the healing dept would be nice. Something like a Regeneration with 60 minutes of only light work (walking, eating, reading, talking, etc) and regain 60 points. 60 minutes might be too short, but imo an alchemical healing would be a good option for the out of combat healing options.
 

tolgar undershaft

Artisan
San Francisco Staff
I remember the Full heal discussion we had and while it seems great for us PC remember that if we can do it they can do it. So how do you stop a BIG BAD GUY from just full healing his mass amounts of HP during a fight. I was suggesting either a high magic or a new healing type skill that is usable out of combat only. Allows for you to patch up a person and then if the person did no other action other than walk for 30 min / 1hr (really could put whatever time that we think would not break rules, they could be brought back to full hp.
 

Darkcrescent

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
I like the idea of healing while sleeping, or being patched up. Sure the off side is that people can cheat and say they took the full amount of time ect, but that can occur in our current system as well.

I play a healer with mostly Cures and a few curses/protections. Having the amount healed increased would do wonders. I feel bad when I heal a fighter with Serious or Crit and they are only partially full. Sure, Cure Mortal wounds gets the job done but you only have so many of those until you're 90-100 build range and most of the time it's massive overheal. Only a handfull of PCs I've encountered have anywhere close to 40 body. I think a healing spell that could cure 30 body would really help out the issue of healing, especially when as a healer, once you're tapped, you're basically unwanted (result of uses 4 Cure serious to heal someone a fighter to full, or 2 Cure Criticals ect)

On the other side, if you raised healing, you'd have to do the same for potion making, and alchemy.


...One final thought, what if you allowed Earth Casters to replace any Earth spell they memorize with a Cure spell? DnD has that for Clerics where you can swap a prepared spell for a Cure/Cause. I think this would encourage more Earth Casters picking up non-healing spells, as well as letting them use spells that aren't healing that were not used. I would love this personally. What you'd do about lvl 3,5,7 and 9 I'm not sure, maybe use the healing spell in the previous circle?

-Ryan
 

phedre

Squire
Exactly. Full heal spells are a dangerous thing. (Yes, some golems are healed to full by prison, but those are few and far between.)

It's useful for the PC that has 70 body (I know of at least one PC who, when wearing his 30 point arcane but no Bless or Shield, can take a 110 slay and still stand), it's terrifying for the BBG that has 700.

Maybe there should be a high magic ability that allows a healer to give large amounts of healing in a 60 second span, rather than a single-packet delivery? That way you can conserve your Morts and Crits for when there's necro on the field, but chances are a BBG won't be able to pull it off mid-fight.

I'd actually like to see healers have a system similar to Evoc. If you want to memorize a 45-point healing spell instead of a Life, that'd be your choice. Also, then there's no level for earth that feels like you're picking the better of the "meh" options. (Being a celestialist, I'd want to see Evoc start with Stone Bolt for 10, and end with Blast at 50, but that's probably selfish :) )

/end tangent
 

tolgar undershaft

Artisan
San Francisco Staff
Perhapse earth storm should do healing not just dmg to undead. Would allow a player to plant and heal for small amounts. But would be able to keep tossing at that front line to keep them up. ???
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Necromancers would love Chaos Storm healing undead (unless they're already healed by Chaos Storm).

PCs would -hate- having their spell shields blown because you were trying to heal them, especially if they were facing something with a spell strike.
 

tolgar undershaft

Artisan
San Francisco Staff
Draven said:
Necromancers would love Chaos Storm healing undead (unless they're already healed by Chaos Storm).

PCs would -hate- having their spell shields blown because you were trying to heal them, especially if they were facing something with a spell strike.

And that would be the trade off. Sure you can heal a bunch of fools in the back and can't move. But the players on front line will not get their spell sheilds up. It limits the over power of this spell to heal at that point.
 

Avaran

Baron
tolgar undershaft said:
Draven said:
Necromancers would love Chaos Storm healing undead (unless they're already healed by Chaos Storm).

PCs would -hate- having their spell shields blown because you were trying to heal them, especially if they were facing something with a spell strike.

And that would be the trade off. Sure you can heal a bunch of fools in the back and can't move. But the players on front line will not get their spell sheilds up. It limits the over power of this spell to heal at that point.
Being able to chain 10 points of healing into another player with unlimited potential is a Bad Idea™, in my opinion, and definitely not intended or supported in the rules. Accommodating such a change would drastically alter how the game is played -- hey, let's have McEarthCasterPants stay in the tavern/fallback point in a circle rep (just in case) then just fall back to them when we need healing. We can get them a chair, food, etc., they never have to move! It ends up getting ridiculous.

If a creature had 100 body, and you only did 10 damage or less per swing, or per spell, you'd literally make zero headway as long as the caster was standing. Yeah, that makes it more important to get to that caster, but that can be a tall order with a big line of baddies in front of you. Imagine if you only did 11 points of damage. That's at least 100 swings of your weapon to eat away at that body, assuming you're able to just stand there and beat on them. And if you have 2 or 3 storms going at once? Forget about it.

If it only healed for 2 instead of 10, then MAYBE, but even then...unlimited healing? Really?
 
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