Spells and Levels

tolgar undershaft

Artisan
San Francisco Staff
That is a neat concept. If it were like 1 HM point per spell slot that you could "free cast" I would definetly take a few for those not sure what to mem spell levels.
 

Dr_Chill

Fighter
tolgar undershaft said:
That is a neat concept. If it were like 1 HM point per spell slot that you could "free cast" I would definetly take a few for those not sure what to mem spell levels.
+1

I would totally dedicate high magic to be able to COTF one spell, maybe something like 3 HM points?
 
Turn/control undead should be 3rd. I understand why it was kicked up to 4th (it got a lot cooler), but it can't compete with cure serious and poison shield.
 

phedre

Squire
Dr_Chill said:
tolgar undershaft said:
That is a neat concept. If it were like 1 HM point per spell slot that you could "free cast" I would definetly take a few for those not sure what to mem spell levels.
+1

I would totally dedicate high magic to be able to COTF one spell, maybe something like 3 HM points?
I'd agree with three. It's cooler than augmenting it, and those are 2 HM points each.
 

Talen

Adept
markusdark said:
I remember way back in the day (pre-split) there was a year there where spell casters were allowed to cast 'on the fly' - that is to say, they had X number of 4th level spells and could, at the time of casting, decide which 4th level spell they wanted to cast.

This didn't last long so I'm assuming that there was a reason it didn't stay in. Either that or my local chapter at the time did something hinky being the only NERO chapter west of the Rockies.
COTF fell under "playtests" for NERO chapters- there were games on the East Coast that did/do COTF, including the NERO successor to Ashbury when Alliance split off.
 

Talen

Adept
tolgar undershaft said:
I remember the Full heal discussion we had and while it seems great for us PC remember that if we can do it they can do it. So how do you stop a BIG BAD GUY from just full healing his mass amounts of HP during a fight. I was suggesting either a high magic or a new healing type skill that is usable out of combat only. Allows for you to patch up a person and then if the person did no other action other than walk for 30 min / 1hr (really could put whatever time that we think would not break rules, they could be brought back to full hp.
I've always said that when you need a full heal, the numbers have gotten too big.

Personally, I'm all for a more rapid "regeneration" spell that requires the target to sit still for a few minutes to recover.

Heals 10 body in the first 5 minutes, then 20 more the next five, 30 more the five after that- but the target has to remain still with the healer while it's happening and only one at a time. Make it third level. Yes, that's a spell that heals up to 60 damage at third level- but it's useless in combat and keeps both the healer AND the healed out of action for 5(10 body)/10(30 body)/15 minutes(60 body). You could put a more potent version in as a 6th level Earth spell too.

Voila. Reasonably quick "recovery" spell that can't be instant-cast on the battlefield. Making that kind of magic effectively "non-combat break time" is a way to allow it without it being broken. Ditto for an advanced "first aid/surgeon" style skill- spend 15 minutes patching together someone for a respectable amount of body points.
 

Talen

Adept
jpariury said:
To what Toddo said, COTF moves characters from "I don't memorize that" to "I don't want to cast that for you". In broad strokes, the former is more socially acceptable than the latter.
On the other hand, it also doesn't mean your caster is stuck there having expended his "general arsenal" for the day and is left only with his "niche spells".

Nothing like being a scholar with half your spells left...and effectively useless.
 

Talen

Adept
Toddo said:
That is true, and something I hadn't considered. Putting COTF or lower spell/higher slot in place would devalue potion and scroll makers, and there are some who would argue that they are already undervalued.
Try playing a Celestial/Earth scholar that took plenty of ranks in making scrolls and potions. I'd share with any casters I went out with.

They were never wasted. Given, I was throwing money at opponents, but we do that as alchemists all the time, no?

Scrolls and potions are undervalued as the numbers of MI's in play increase, since they're inferior to them.
 

KyleSchmelz

Fighter
COTF fell under "playtests" for NERO chapters- there were games on the East Coast that did/do COTF, including the NERO successor to Ashbury when Alliance split off.
Most NERO International chapters I've played at (4/5 IIRC) use CotF , but each chapter gets to choose which one it wants to use. I've played both with memorization and with CotF - as a caster, it's certainly easier to get things done with CotF, but I can definitely see the argument for memorization being better. I think being able to use high magic for CotF is a good compromise.

Personally, I'm all for a more rapid "regeneration" spell that requires the target to sit still for a few minutes to recover.
Not to keep going on about how International does things, but there's a level 8 spell in International called "Regenerate" that heals the target to full over 60 seconds which is interrupted if they do anything or take damage, if I remember right. The short duration means people end up using it on the battlefield fairly frequently. I think a better solution would be a lower level spell or high magic ability with a duration of at least 5 minutes.
 

Darkcrescent

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
[/quote]
Not to keep going on about how International does things, but there's a level 8 spell in International called "Regenerate" that heals the target to full over 60 seconds which is interrupted if they do anything or take damage, if I remember right. The short duration means people end up using it on the battlefield fairly frequently. I think a better solution would be a lower level spell or high magic ability with a duration of at least 5 minutes.[/quote]

Cure Mort does roughly the same thing faster as a lvl 8 spell, though I'm sure higher end fighters have way more than 40 build so a Regenerate would be beneficial.

I would love the idea of high magic healing being more...high magic. A caster takes so much training and learning to reach the ability to cast high magic, and then when they finally learn it, their first option is "Healers Resolve". Sure being able to say "Heal 5 body" is nice and fast, but for a High Magic ability healing 5 body seems weak. I think this is where a Regeneration heal-over-time would shine. As an Earth caster, you're able to siphon small amounts of energy to flow into someone over time, instead of grab a large chunk at once (Life spell, Cure Crit/Mort).

I'm not going to attempt to balance build cost with requriement, but I'd think something like this:
Regenerate- Heal to full over 60 seconds. Spell fails if any action is taken or damage taken. 2 High Magic points. Can be taken for every 2 9th level spells you can memorize.
 

Talen

Adept
Darkcrescent said:
I'm not going to attempt to balance build cost with requriement, but I'd think something like this:
Regenerate- Heal to full over 60 seconds. Spell fails if any action is taken or damage taken. 2 High Magic points. Can be taken for every 2 9th level spells you can memorize.
That's my point, though- it's a combat-capable heal. I can First Aid someone in an uninterrupted minute. People do that all the time. Full heals on that sorta timer IMHO are too much.

Heck, I've seen BBEG's monologue longer than that on modules. :) I'd like to see big heals = out of combat, takes a solid chunk of time and even so, aren't FULL heals. Just big numbers. If it's an out-of-combat big heal that's a reasonably low level cast, it means that fewer people aren't running around soaking up tons of instant-cast stuff or just sitting there running on fumes.
 

phedre

Squire
The Regeneration spells are deadly when combined with you BBG and a Circle of Power. All he has to do is be able to get one, or drop one himself, and if he's got a shadow/dragon mage with him who can put one up and then recognize him in, the PCs will be in even more trouble if the mage has a few of those in memory.

Ray mentioned a heal-to-full perk that CT gives the members of it's healer's guild, which involves the recipient and the healer sitting for a duration (I want to say it's 5 minutes?) and it must be out of audible and visual range of combat. A healer can also only bring each individual person up to full body once per logistics, so it means healers have to RP with different people throughout the course of the day.

It can't be done during a battle or mod, because each instance of combat breaks the healer's concentration. I'd go for that being a national thing.
 
While we're spitballing at this, how about a High Magic that requires a Permanent CoP to use? Ya'll need to spend 5 minutes in the circle together, and everybody gets healed to full. Costs a couple of HM points, but it can't be done in combat (since no one drags a perm. CoP around with them) and makes the whole thing a strictly 'between fights' sort of thing. If you really want your healer hanging out in the Circle waiting to get a big enough pile of bodies in there to make it 'worth it' to burn their ability, you're either doing it wrong by not keeping those people up to begin with, or the big healer is already tapped and this gives them something to keep doing during the Town Wave Battle That Just Won't Quit(tm).
 

Darkcrescent

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
The Healer's Guild ability to RP for 5 minutes to bring someone back to full hp 1 per logistics period sounds fantastic. I would love to see this more, even if it's LCO at other chapters.

In my original post I should of clarified that Out of Combat would be better suited for it. I think there needs to be something to bring people to full, while not frequent, while combat isn't going on, otherwise you're going to have a tapped healer who after they've used everything out of combat, won't be brought on combat mods because they're tapped.
 

phedre

Squire
That's one of the downsides to being a caster, you get tapped. You still have first aid and can get someone up and running.

Full heals are a bad idea. Giving a 9th level 40 or 50 point heal, sure. Blanket full heal means that that BBEG that your town just spent 20 minutes beating down can now full heal himself without a renew or revive.

No thanks.
 

Avaran

Baron
I would totally dedicate high magic to be able to COTF one spell, maybe something like 3 HM points?
Cast on the fly is extremely powerful, almost excessively so (see below), and could drastically change combat and the way monsters have their stats allocated; I don't think that 3 HM points is enough of a barrier/limiter. When you start looking at 25th+ level characters (261 build gets you: OHE, R/W, FA/HA, merchant, teacher, 6 Column, 30 Levels of formal) having a 6 or 7 column with 30 levels of Formal (which at 3 HM is 10 COTF spells), I'd say that's pretty scarey. It allows you to focus on 1 school/effect group or 1 take-out and just pump them full of prisons or sleeps or confines or paralysis, etc. Now imagine having 3 or 4 or 5 casters with CoTF that can do that. It'd also make it significantly easier to fix people and remove negative character effects. Now think of how bad guys and BBEG's would need to change in order to deal with that if you wanted a fight to last more than 10 or 15 seconds (bind until it sticks, then send in the stick jocks). Is that something that you as a PC would want to have to deal with? On the plus side, it could potentially hose PC golems!

I'd put it at a minimum of 5 HM points, maybe even 7 per COTF spell slot. As a compromise:

Levels 1-3: 4 HM points.
Levels 4-6: 5 HM points.
Levels 7-9: 6 HM points.

Lower-level spells are easier to cast / memorize, so they take less HM to COTF. Heck, even add that you have to have a spellbook out and readable in order to COTF

Or have an incremental cost: the more COTF spells you get, the harder it is to focus, so the more HM it would take.

Example: COTF 1-3 spells, it costs 3 HM each. (So 9 total to get 3 COTF).
If you want, say, 4-7 spells, those additional ones would cost, say, 4 HM each.

So if you got 3 spells, you'd spend 9 HM. If you wanted a fourth, you'd spend 13 points (3+3+3+4), if you wanted 5, you'd spend 17 points (3+3+3+4+4).

If you want 8 or more COTF spells, you'd pay 5 HM for each additional COTF spell.

So at 7 it'd be: (3+3+3+4+4+4+4 = 25 HM for 7 spells) and at 8 or more, it'd be (3+3+3+4+4+4+4+5 = 30 HM for 8 spells, 35 HM for 9 spells, 40 for 10 spells) etc.
For example, if you wanted

Another way would be to limit it by the number of 9ths you have; i.e. 1 COTF per 2 9th level spells and keep the cost at a static 3HM.

phedre said:
The Regeneration spells are deadly when combined with you BBG and a Circle of Power. All he has to do is be able to get one, or drop one himself, and if he's got a shadow/dragon mage with him who can put one up and then recognize him in, the PCs will be in even more trouble if the mage has a few of those in memory.

with CoTF, that Shadow/Dragon Mage is guaranteed to have multiple CoP's "in memory" and would make full heals and even worse idea, imo.

Also: when can Fighters and Rogues get something as useful and flexible as High Magic? Give them something like Stick Jock Points™ that work like HM -- you have a minimum requirement (say 8 profs or 8 backstabs). Once you have that, you can start putting build into SJP's. These allow you to 'buy' extra skills you already have (like, hey, Fighter-person, you can buy a 5th parry or a third Stun Limb for a day without having to get that 9th/ 10th prof! Make spell parry available as a form of technique preparation, used in conjunction with your HM-toting caster friend with Teacher levels that uses the/a card but doesn't teach you permanently (gives teacher a bit more worth too) that can actually read the scroll...I dunno...something that gives Rogues and Fighters something to effectively spend build on without adding to damage bloat.

Back on topic a little: 3 HM/spell makes COTF too accessible, it should be something that's rare and awesome, imo, if it's even implemented. On the same level as Eviscerates and Terminates are -- getting to 3 or 4 of those is pretty "Whoa!", I think COTF should have that similar factor to it.
 
phedre said:
Blanket full heal means that that BBEG that your town just spent 20 minutes beating down can now full heal himself without a renew or revive.
That's why people are trying to build in the "it doesn't work in combat" thing. If the Plot team wants to give the BBG a Full Heal, they already can, with a Revive or something. That possibility already exists within the rules. What you really have to justify is a reason why every Smart BBG can't heal themselves to full. Most of them don't do it because they can't, they don't have the necessary ability. Making it something that a PC can get removes that block unless you hard-wire in a reason that they can't just bring along someone with that PC skill, like an exceptionally long time frame (which I think can be defeated with a battle cast CoP, and would lead to people camping out around the circle and getting bored while the BBG heals up) or a hard to come by (for NPCs) object, like a Permanent CoP.

Even a Dragon Mage would need a Perm. CoP scroll to study from to prepare that ritual, and the whole idea is that they're supposed to be hard to come by (ie, Plot Controlled). If the Plot wants to give their BBG access to that scroll, or make the PCs fight the BBG on 'their turf' where they have a Perm CoP, that's fine. It doesn't change anything, they could have just written "Revive" on the BBG card, too. An obstacle that the BBG can't overcome by geography/resources/etc doesn't make them any dumber, just at some disadvantage (that we're basically assuming that they have to deal with anyways, since waltzing into town with your minions really isn't ever the best plan, anyways, but we accept it).
 
I myself have no problem with spells/abilities that fully heal.

But this is also based on just not allowing NPC bad guys the same access. I do not believe in parity between bbg's and PC's.

just link special stuff like full heals to participation in guilds...

-sigh-

It was a good idea. I just implemented it like crap.
 

James Trotta

Spellsword
Diversity Committee
To me this is a scaling thing. With full heals we might see fewer bad guys with 500+ body.
phedre said:
Full heals are a bad idea. Giving a 9th level 40 or 50 point heal, sure. Blanket full heal means that that BBEG that your town just spent 20 minutes beating down can now full heal himself without a renew or revive.

No thanks.
But the full heals that take a while are pretty nifty too. I would prefer they required the recipient to sit and do nothing but let's not punish the caster.

As for spells that I'd replace?

Well with a 4 block scholar, not many. Not even more spell shields since sleep, charm, and confine are still very big deals at that level. As you get bigger though, more spell shields and fewer sleeps or cure crits. Life spells become less important than purifies. I could see purify being 9th.
 

phedre

Squire
Let me rephrase. "I call upon the Earth to restore your full health!" would make me cry.

Sitting for 5 minutes entirely outside of combat and bringing someone to full body? Cool.
 
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