I also head that Blacksmiths need a better way to make money. I don't know how that would work thematically( Spirit Forges in the workshop ), but mechanically it seems like the place to put that. It could even be added as part of their Paragon Path.
Spirit Forge
- Thread starter Muir
- Start date
This is an ability that could easily be tied to crafting which needs a complete overhaul.
Avaran
Baron
You could always make the lesser/tiered ones available through the Ritual Pick List via goblin stamps. The more widely available the 'lower level' ones are, the less 'wasted' they would be.
Saephis
Squire
If the Teacher ability allowed one to respend all of the build in a given Skill, even if (and likely when) that resulted in respending some build back into that Ability, it'd balance out, I feel.
<Magic School> 1 through Formal is 10 'Teacher Card' uses.
<Martial Skills> are subjective, but potentially higher requirement, given they all (currently) tie back to how many Weapon Proficiencies a character has.
Requiring a top-down approach would allow it, I feel, without becoming too restricting.
IE: Fighter wants to go Scholar? Okay, well, first get teacher cards for each Stun Limb, Parry, Slay, Eviscerate, Riposte, etc. before you're able to 'Teacher'-away a single Weapon Proficiency.
Scholar wants to go Rogue? First get rid of your Formal Magic, then your 9th levels, your 8th, etc. down the line.
After you 'zero out' your abilities, start collecting Teaching for your new abilities. Don't want to deal with that much work? Deal with different work in looking for a Spirit Forge scroll and catalyst.
Want to go through it slowly?
Fighter (as above) loses all their disarms and Stun Limbs one event. Next event, they lose their Slays and Parries. They slowly reinvest that build into Scholarly abilities -- starting from the ground up -- until they get down to Weapon Proficiency, losing the last vestige of stabby-stabby they had.
Scholar (as above) drops their Formal magic and 9th level spells, this results in a teardrop-to-8, putting that build into Backstabs and (now) Create Trap or Alchemy.
Muir
Fighter
I believe that's a no-go per national level policy because there can be no such thing as an LCO character, so an LCO Spirit Forge or Race Change ritual can't be a thing. Correct me if I am wrong.
Alavatar
Baron
To be fair, this is effectively currently the status quo. While you may not have needed to pay the gold someone did, whether it was for the scroll, catalyst, reagent, or caster. The proposals being discussed that incorporate a coin money sink effectively reduce the lump sum of purchasing a scroll, catalyst, reagents, and caster to instead be a payment plan over time; and may actually be less expensive overall if only a couple of skills are being corrected.
Muir
Fighter
(Sorry for the spam)
The fighter (or rogue) still has a distinct advantage there, though. With escalating costs, dropping your top prof/backstab is always going to generate vastly more free build than any caster skill.
Saephis
Squire
Depends on the caster. I know a couple who would free up a great wealth of build by dropping Formal Magic.
But, yes, in most cases (The above example is certainly outlying), the caster would have to go through more tiered effects. My timeline of effects is more in line with current setups, because I frankly hope that the Owners see what the currently proposed changes to Backstab/Weapon Proficiency ramping up of costs would do to the game-at-large and they ditch that proposed course. Even with that, the caster going to a martial build would see a faster transition than the martial build going to a caster -- with the approaching glut of abilities between fighter and rogue, you'll have to scourge away far more of them.
Avaran
Baron
I don't think it matters if the following criteria are met:
1) As long as the ritual is re-worked.
2) As long as it's not a Catalyst ritual for the "lesser" version
3) As long as it's tiered to not need a ritual or be a "lesser" version available without a Catalyst
Plot can drop those scrolls whenever they want, wherever they want, however they want, and in whatever quantity they want, I don't see how that's any different than having it as a Goblin Point pick as a customer service option.
If there's concern about it being used too much, you can always put an annual cap per character or something.
Tulbor
Artisan
Personally, I think the current setup is complete crap and is detrimental to players. We have someone who's been wanting to change from Templar to Scholar. None of the player base has the scroll or the catalyst. He reached out to plot, something was figured out, they were all set to do it, but because they weren't reminded, it was forgotten about and never happened. Finally another player says "oh hey I have this combo, it'll cost this much." They get paid, they hand over the scroll, say that they'll have the catalyst next game, everyone is happy. Except that now the seller can't find the catalyst, possibly having sold it to someone who no longer plays about a year ago, and forgetting that he has done so. So now the refund has to happen and a new setup has to be done, just so someone can change from what they no longer enjoy playing to something they really want to play. 4 months. It's a waste of time, it's a drain on resources, and it's just stupid that it's this difficult to change the character setup.
Get rid of the catalyst. Or get rid of the whole scroll package. Just set it as "You are allowed 1 full character change per year, and 2 minor changes per year." That's it! Or something like that. That shouldn't be too difficult for logistics teams to deal with and it keeps players happy knowing that they can try out something and if they don't like it, they can change it.
Get rid of the catalyst. Or get rid of the whole scroll package. Just set it as "You are allowed 1 full character change per year, and 2 minor changes per year." That's it! Or something like that. That shouldn't be too difficult for logistics teams to deal with and it keeps players happy knowing that they can try out something and if they don't like it, they can change it.
Tulbor
Artisan
I like this idea. Do that.
mikestrauss
Squire
I am going to say this as directly as possible. This is a customer service issue, pure and simple.
The current rules punish players for making "wrong" decisions. If they choose a skill that they think will be interesting or useful and then discover that they don't enjoy the skill or simply aren't able to get any meaningful benefit from it, they are simply stuck with it. Worse than that, because of the way the build/xp system works, the mere presence of that skill (or skills) on their character sheet isn't just dead weight, it is also slowing down their access to new skills (build gain is always decreasing).
While I recognize the realism inherent in this (though I would argue that it isn't quite as realistic as we claim... see below), this is a situation where I believe realism should take a back door to customer satisfaction. The original proposal is very similar to one that I proposed at one point in the past and I think, on broad strokes, it is quite good (details may need work). The ability to slowly shift skills allows players to make adjustments when they are no longer enjoying the current skills of the character. The measured pace of shifting (personally, I recommend 15 per game played as either PC or NPC) prevents any meaningful cheesiness, while still allowing players to feel like they aren't being punished by the system. If a static number is used (as I have suggested) it also means that newer characters will take much less time to fully shift (1/2 a year to a year) than really high level characters (3+ years), which means the Spirit Forge ritual still retains value.
I have played a templar that was permanently stuck with small weapon and a back attack (old rules when that wasn't entirely an unreasonable cost) because of poor early decisions and a lack of understanding of the rules. While I am long past being bitter, the experience makes me empathize with players who want to make changes to their character cards (sometimes just minor ones) without having to go through the struggle of finding the rarest ritual set in the game.
-MS
Note about realism: I contend that a slow shift is actually realistic (if a little bit sped up due to necessity). In my 40 years of life I have learned a lot of skills, some of them pretty well. For example, I was a green belt in Isshin Ryu karate when I was about 10 or 11. Those skills have deteriorated and I couldn't even reach yellow belt anymore without being taught all over again. The part of my brain / body that was dedicated to those skills has since been dedicated to new skills. Game rules allowing a slow shift may be quicker than those shifts occur in real life, but the speed at which we learn skills in-game is also quicker (all because it makes the game more fun).
The current rules punish players for making "wrong" decisions. If they choose a skill that they think will be interesting or useful and then discover that they don't enjoy the skill or simply aren't able to get any meaningful benefit from it, they are simply stuck with it. Worse than that, because of the way the build/xp system works, the mere presence of that skill (or skills) on their character sheet isn't just dead weight, it is also slowing down their access to new skills (build gain is always decreasing).
While I recognize the realism inherent in this (though I would argue that it isn't quite as realistic as we claim... see below), this is a situation where I believe realism should take a back door to customer satisfaction. The original proposal is very similar to one that I proposed at one point in the past and I think, on broad strokes, it is quite good (details may need work). The ability to slowly shift skills allows players to make adjustments when they are no longer enjoying the current skills of the character. The measured pace of shifting (personally, I recommend 15 per game played as either PC or NPC) prevents any meaningful cheesiness, while still allowing players to feel like they aren't being punished by the system. If a static number is used (as I have suggested) it also means that newer characters will take much less time to fully shift (1/2 a year to a year) than really high level characters (3+ years), which means the Spirit Forge ritual still retains value.
I have played a templar that was permanently stuck with small weapon and a back attack (old rules when that wasn't entirely an unreasonable cost) because of poor early decisions and a lack of understanding of the rules. While I am long past being bitter, the experience makes me empathize with players who want to make changes to their character cards (sometimes just minor ones) without having to go through the struggle of finding the rarest ritual set in the game.
-MS
Note about realism: I contend that a slow shift is actually realistic (if a little bit sped up due to necessity). In my 40 years of life I have learned a lot of skills, some of them pretty well. For example, I was a green belt in Isshin Ryu karate when I was about 10 or 11. Those skills have deteriorated and I couldn't even reach yellow belt anymore without being taught all over again. The part of my brain / body that was dedicated to those skills has since been dedicated to new skills. Game rules allowing a slow shift may be quicker than those shifts occur in real life, but the speed at which we learn skills in-game is also quicker (all because it makes the game more fun).
Another thing to add to the current spirit forge ritual. If you have received one already (not a rules or medical forge) any one after that will add a death to your card. Imagine bbdm hits you with a spirit forge, do you take the ritual and take the death on your card or refuse the ritual and go res. I guess id take the ritual because I won't need to actually resurrect. It's the only ritual in the game with that caveat, afaik. I guess it was made that way too prevent players from doing it over and over but id add a death to my card to fix my build if I felt I needed it.
Avaran
Baron
It used to work this way (first one was free, subsequent ones put a death on your card that you couldn't buyback), but that drawback was removed quite some time ago.
Lurin
Duke
I always find it interesting when blanket statements like this are made. The reason skills don't move around easily is not only "realism" but to allow people to find their niche.
There is very little customer service benefit when the long term player with 30 levels, shifts to cover a gap, that new players were slowly filling. For example I have seen multiple, MULTIPLE instances of long term players in some chapters getting Spirit Forges mid event so they could cast that big celestial ritual that was needed (During an event where there was a celestial guy that had enough to do it, but not at the 'best' level) The easier it is to migrate build the more often this can happen. Now you can balance that out by saying the younger player can also try new things more often, and that's a balance, but it's also true that now 'big fighter gal' that finds 'super blacksmith recipe' is also less likely to share it, after all she can migrate over and take a vacation in Blacksmith town over a year (which could be super cool for her) but now "Younger Blacksmithing Gal" who was at 12 ranks doesn't get to do the cool thing when she hits 15 ranks because she'll never see that recipe.
So Long story short, I'd really like to point out that every benefit/additional power/flexibility in a team work game (at least by design) like ours, has the very real potential of impacting other players. As to the 'stuck build' if you have 300 build and 7 of it is inefficient because you tried something, I argue that really isn't a problem, turns out you'll get more build, this slows down later on, after you should understand the game well, but isn't that kind of the point?
Again to be clear I'm not saying this is a bad idea, but I am frustrated by Sith-like absolutes that suggests that changes have to be done because a portion of the player base would really like them and if you don't do them it's because you don't care about larping people.
Saephis
Squire
I disagree wholeheartedly. The majority of the players I've seen seek out and use the Spirit Forge rituals, as I noted previously in the thread, have been longer term players who have gone to lengths to collect the pieces over time, hoarding them from others. Speaking for myself, life events progressed in a manner that saw me as an Earth Scholar for stint of time, and absolutely miserable with it after the first couple-to-few games.
Likewise, as players of longer-term come and go, established 'groups' will often see a key member vanish due to life, and they're left grasping the air to fill that gap. Could one of their number fill it? Certainly, if they had the pieces. Then they 'backfill' with someone less experienced, and mentor them sufficiently to get them up to speed. Did the person who filled that gap enjoy it, and want to stay there? Who knows, as it'll be different to say each time.
If anyone is going to benefit more than others on this topic, its the longer term players, who will utilize it as simply 'better' customer care -- maintaining the player base you have, rather than assuming that a two-per-year ritual will go to those most needing of it.
You will also likely see benefit with different event turnouts -- I think its safe to say that, after a certain number of years of play, we've all seen events where one to four 'key' niche-holding individuals don't show up for some reason or another. Say that leaves you with no high or low level fighters. Worse, what if that leaves you with no one willing to heal the masses? Elemental campaign with insufficient Celestialists, perhaps?
To go on further, what happens through someone's life that sees them slowly shift to just wanting to do something else, but not wanting to abandon their existing character? Or shelve them and wait as they build another, with something they may-or-may-not enjoy more?
Different chapters will go through different trends, however when multiple parties say "This is a Customer Service" need, and the incredibly small minority says "No, it isn't", its time for those parties to look at why they're saying that on an International level.
Good to know. Shows when the last time I cast a Spirit Forge was lol
Avaran
Baron
With basically nobody having a very good idea of how everything will actually PLAY and FEEL during an actual weekend event (not some day-long play test that is woefully inadequate), I think it's more than reasonable to give players some flexibility in terms of build reallocation. I feel like there needs to be a "learning curve" time period for everyone if/when the new rules are released. It may take many games over many months for players to find what works for them and to find the play style that they find most fun. Even if it's something like, "for the first year, players may Spirit Forge for free 3 times". That's once every 4 months, which doesn't seem too over-the-top.
Yes, it will mean a whole lot more work for Logistics teams and Chapter staff, but that's what you guys (the owners) are signing up for by releasing what is effectively an entirely new game.
The social distribution of characters in this game tends toward groups of characters staying together, fighting together, and generally playing the game with one another with general interactions with other players and other groups of players, and in some cases plot-related interactions with things like Town Fights and BBG Fights and the like.
Given this, I feel like that group dynamic, more than anything, determines distribution of skills and niches of characters, and is determined by that character's group needs rather than the "town"/chapter as a whole. I am utterly not surprised that someone would Spirit Forge to cast a ritual (when else would they do it if not during the middle of an event? That's pretty much the only valid time to do it.) when there is someone else in town who is 'mostly capable'.
There can be a multitude of reasons why that would happen though, and I find it shocking that these other possibilities aren't given their proper weight. For example, what if one group hates the other group, in-game? What if there is some kind of character rivalry that you don't know about out-of-game? Maybe it is a political play, or a bid to not be under another group's thumb? What if they don't want to pay any gold for services rendered? Maybe the caster character was an a-hole and the group needing the ritual cast didn't want to deal with them?
You and I both know that characters can have the strangest, smallest reasons for disliking or distrusting other characters, and often will go to great lengths to screw each other over (mostly passive-aggressively).
jdackow
Adept
I see two different issue here. Some of the group seem to be focusing on a more regular way to SF in general and the other group is looking for a more focused SF based on the 2.0 changes. I like the idea of a minor OOG change once a year as an ongoing rule after the new rule come out and maybe a few opportunities over that first year to rewrite based on the scope of the 2.0 rules changes.
As a scholar I invested in blacksmithing at 2 or 3rd level. As it could make the difference on the battle field of life or death. Now that I have an AA I rarely use the skill except to make a batch of arrows just because I have the skill. I did not buy the skill as a mistake and knew this would happen but it was needed at the time in my opinion. Now it has out live much of it usefulness to me. It would be great to reinvest this build to something more useful to my character now as I have grown but it would not be worth the cost of a SF as it is only a few build. However, I agree this type of minor changes should not be used regularly once the dust settles from the 2.0 change to do a rewrite for the next event as that can steal the spot light form other players as Dave talked about. I see it as an issue of the logistic team to keep of all the change that may happen during the start of an event if it can happen all the time.
Just my two coppers.
As a scholar I invested in blacksmithing at 2 or 3rd level. As it could make the difference on the battle field of life or death. Now that I have an AA I rarely use the skill except to make a batch of arrows just because I have the skill. I did not buy the skill as a mistake and knew this would happen but it was needed at the time in my opinion. Now it has out live much of it usefulness to me. It would be great to reinvest this build to something more useful to my character now as I have grown but it would not be worth the cost of a SF as it is only a few build. However, I agree this type of minor changes should not be used regularly once the dust settles from the 2.0 change to do a rewrite for the next event as that can steal the spot light form other players as Dave talked about. I see it as an issue of the logistic team to keep of all the change that may happen during the start of an event if it can happen all the time.
Just my two coppers.