The Grass is Always Greener: Nobles vs. Commoners

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Freeport & Qeynos? 0-sec space? Someone's showing their MMO street cred up in here.

No reference to Felucca & Trammel? I am dissapoint.
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Interestingly enough those last 2 (felucca & trammel) are somewhat applicable. In short, the UO Devs split the world into one where PKing was allowed (like the original game) and another one where it wasn't allowed (consentual pvp only). It was a horrible failure and people left the game in droves. Other elements were involved (such as the release of EverQuest), but still. Here's a quote on the wiki page from UO:

As explained by designer Raph Koster, "Being safe from evil is, in my mind, an uneven tradeoff for the fact that you don't get to be heroes anymore, in that you can just opt out of fighting evil. It may be nobody wants to be heroes except when it doesn't count, when it isn't challenging, that people would rather fight 'pretend evil' than the real thing, but I don't personally believe that. I still think people are better than that."

Plot does a good job of giving us plenty of evil to fight... but we're not always going to all be on the same team.... and that's okay. When big billy badass comes to town to collect heads, you're still probably going to see Paladin McRighteous and Villain O'Backstabber working together in the name of mutual survival... but they probably aren't going for beers after.
 
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I thought this thread was winding down, but new ideas and thoughts are always welcomed for discussion! I appreciate hearing another side of things and another player perspective. Remember a few things here... plot has NO OFFICIAL stance on PK/PVP. If it happens, and it abides by alliance rules, then it happens. Just be smart and be careful because if you get caught, it's going to hurt. I know there have been MANY political PVP situations that had some fun RP moments, and only 2 PVP combats that I know of so far... lol.
On another note, as our game grows, the game landscape will grow. We have introduced shady elements to the game multiple times... some very overt... and some very seeekrit... and hinting... the players, on several occasions have turned over on them several times, making the shady element (being introduced from plot) not so welcoming and friendly to the player base. Other times, commoners have ran right up to the nobles and handed over what they found instead of taking it up on their own.
My recommendation if you want the gray game... form more commoner teams... explore your own plots/npcs/mods... don't feel like you need to share everything... don't invite nobles on MODS if you want get away with things... believe me, there are ways.

As for the death knights... hehe... there were two... one, who was left alone and not engaged, was left to ravage the countryside and killed a bunch of farmers and their families... the one known as the former baron, had very specific plot related instructions... yet to be revealed.

Keep in mind we are still a young game, and not many fights have had an opportunity to affect the geopolitical landscape at all... but the players have acquired the aid of 2 Ogre tribes through their efforts.

As for the questions, Why should we help? That's a great question! I played on a Dark elf team, where we would sit and watch and think, "Meh. Not our fight." And we would watch. Granted we weren't too popular in town... so if you don't care about your rep with the nobles, go ahead and sit out a fight. Remember, no one is forcing you what alignment to play... just be ready for natural consequences. Our culture has evolved the way it is due to strong noble personalities, but it is no way the ONLY way to play our game. I congratulate the players who have already begun thinking of ways to play a "different" game. hehe. Looking forward to 2015!!
 
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Lol KnightKlaw, I didn't play UO but I appreciate the sentiment. Maybe I should have said "give us conquerable stations?"

I updated my sig Trace, it's me Bremmus (Nico). I made this account when I first joined and Tyloric was my MWE who disappeared back into the forest after my first weekend... It won't let me change the name, lol.
 
Well said Tyler! I actually LOLed when you mentioned not going for beers after! LOL
 
I agree with Nico's post by and large. I do want to point out that the lack of underground structure isn't totally plot's fault. As Jesse said in his post plot has created numerous opportunities for characters to participate in profitable shady opportunities. The problems have been threefold:

1. Players that have claimed to want "shady" opportunities have consistently and explicitly rejected numerous hooks. Waylay games, slavers, black market for formal components, the REAL Thieve's Guild, and even an assassination plot have all been passed over by PCs that could have easily participated because they didn't want to participate. Apathy killed these hooks.

Possible Solution: If you as a player are interested in a specific kind of shady hook... let plot know! I'm sure plot would love to have their hooks bit, but if your PC won't respond to anything then there won't be any shady plot. The most important part of this is don't say what you think others would like... say what YOU would like. (Even better have it be in your background)

2. Many of these hooks also died on contact with the numerically robust Noble class of the game. I know several Kobolds came into NA looking for participants in the Waylay games only to get murdered by Red/White belts following the Duchess's decree. Many of the PCs would have been open to allowing participation, but for the decree. The combination of an oppressive and omnipresent NPC superstructure of control and lots of PC nobility leads to the NPC portrayals of these hooks having a REALLY hard time getting to their targets.

Possible Solution: Give the PC Nobility more power to make relevant decisions. The more constrained the more they will act as a unified and roving police on the other players. This isn't to say that there shouldn't be rewards for being a "good guy", but the current culture is stifling towards non-LG players and that is a direct result of what plot has communicated to Noble PCs. Another possibility is to make the PC Noble class SMALLER. Create role play penalties for having a huge noble court. Tiatar has over 20 different PCs attached to their team when that many players are part of a group its going to be everywhere.

Right now we have a huge number of Squires (8 by my count). If every PC gets elevated to a Knight then that's going to be a huge class of White belts. What percentage of the game should be nobility? If that percentage is 25% you'll have a very different game than if that number is 10% or 5%. Rejecting some of the Squires for clear and articulated reasons (well in advance of the rejection) will lower the numbers. I think some of the Squires chose the path because it was a clear path to leadership. Having more leadership paths for non-nobles is a great way to peel off some interest in being Lawful Good. What does it mean to be a Squire? what does it mean to be a Knight? There needs to be clear goals and intent for the squires. I felt Dame Katherine was doing a great job providing this training, but Trace needs to know that her vision is congruent with plot's. Additionally, if that PC is the way that squires are trained and judged then there needs to be explicit empowerment. I've seen "on-again, off-again" empowerment which is the worst kind. One event Dame Katherine is in charge of Squire training the next she isn't and Squires can skip chivalry school because its optional and Dame Katherine is "irrelevant" (Other Squire's words not mine). What must all squires do to become a knight? Obviously follow the code... should they be present for over 50% of the games? Should they have qualities outside of the code? Do the opinions of the other PCs matter in the process? Finally and most importantly, how is plot receiving information on what Squires are doing? I know that some plot members can't name all the Squires in game. How can a realistic decision be made about who is doing well and who isn't if plot isn't getting information on the Squires? If transitioning from Squire to Knight is automatic then the game will be very different than if becoming a Knight is an earned achievement. ESPECIALLY if the other PCs get to weigh in on the process (something I'm very much in favor of... and not jsut the Noble PCs).

3. Too many "good" and "lawful" PCs. And too few player-friendly "evil" and "anti-estabilishment" NPCs. This is the biggest one.

Possible Solutions: The easiest way to create a game with a more dynamic moral choice is to have PCs step up to the plate an play evil and chaotic characters. There are a FEW "evil-lite" characters, but having some charismatic and welcoming evil PCs is going to be one of the best things for the evil game especially if they take Jesse's suggestion and form commoner teams. Just because your character is evil doesn't mean that the character has to be played irresponsibly. There is a difference between "I murder any player in the woods I come across" and playing a long term game of political sabotage and undermining various groups of characters. Targeting experienced players that have a lot of power is another good tactic for leveling the playing field. The most important part of having PvP in a game is that it is done responsibly, which is really hard for some players.

Allow the NPCs to make some mistakes and have less ret-conning. If every time a "good" NPC does something "bad" the gods of Ret-con come in and say "no that didn't happen". Then "find out in game" becomes a joke. Even worse it makes NPCs one-dimension and cartoonish. One thing that makes politics interesting is when your leaders are flawed. Don't rewrite the history books, allow for all the depth of realty in your NPCs. Even better, bake in those moral questions and conflicting motivations.



Previously, I had assumed that the reason a lot of the things existed in game for a reason. Specifically, this game was primarily lawful-good. Playing a non-good non-law abiding character was going to be ultra-hard mode. I chose to play a good and lawful PC because other PCs told me that this was the type of game we were playing and the game needed more to support its core themes. Ultimately, if you want your game to be a "good guy" game then you need to reward players that make the good choice. If the good guys feel dumb for being good consistently then they will become evil. Our game has made both "sides" feel constrained and unable to make meaningful choices. The Nobles feel constrained because any time they exert power they are told they are not allowed to do so. The non-nobles (especially grey/evil non-nobles) feel constrained by the PC Nobles because the PC Nobles are told to come down on them like 12-tons of bricks. In the end it leaves all groups frustrated.

I'm looking forward to next year and feel highly optimistic that there will be opportunities for both nobles and non-nobles to have more rope to make those choices.
 
Well said Wosley. I find it interesting to learn that the nobility has been challenged by plot in being unable to act with direct authority. I don't think that really gets out to the populace.. Also Trace, to say the nobility is small isn't really accurate. I think most non-nobility regard the 8 squires at least as nobility too. Any of the squires are pretty much automatically going to follow any noble's directives and mandates. Personally I view anyone with a colored belt with the same eye, regardless of their actual level of authority in game. (I'd venture to bet that most non-nobility didn't even know that squires aren't technically nobility.) When you factor in the large retinues as well, that's a fair number of "noble" folks walking around - what, like half the pc's?

We've hit on a lot of points here, but I just wanted to share some other thoughts: I think having squirehood not directly equating to eventual knighthood is an *excellent* idea. Achieving knighthood should really mean something. I play in other monarchist games and I really want my nobles (particularly knights) to be, well noble. I want to feel compelled to follow them on their merit, presence and command. Respect is earned, not requested. (On a side note, I suspect this is the cause for the mandate that all Barons/Baronesses must take a turn at warchief...) In another game I play, squires are elevated only through consensus of the existing knights. Leaving it to the populace as a whole makes it a mass popularity contest and I think that demeans the achievement. I know that were I of rank, I'd take issue with someone I felt was unworthy of the title achieving it solely through mass popularity or automatic advancement vs individual merit. Some of my best battlefield memories are from when someone in a white belt actually took command, and then we all kicked some *** together. I'm not particularly anti-nobility, I'd just like more options in my game.

RE evil characters: I think it is much easier to say "have some players step up and play evil" than it is to do so. It was made quite clear to me on my first weekend that there was a strict moral code in NA and variance would not be tolerated. At a hint of anything shady I could expect the bottomless coffers of the distant Dutchess to invoke magics to scry what happened and exact swift justice. ****, I still want to play, guess I *have* to be good then... Big part of why I swapped from a libertarian satyr-kin MWE to a Dwarf.

Quite frankly, there is pretty much always a noble around anytime an npc shows up, to the town at least. I know you played a badass rogue for years, but I really think that there is less opportunity to color outside the lines then you think there is Jessie. Plot can throw the waylayers and the supposed real thieves guild but you can't have someone walk up like that and expect anything but the default LG response in the current climate. Its like all PC's are on team Good, and we all fight team Evil. The nobility rules team Good so if you aren't a noble then you are pretty much out of luck. Now go get into your assigned haphazard unit and do what someone who doesn't want to be in charge tells you to do... Lots of fun.

That is why I'd love to see a place outside the Dutchess' direct view and a way to profit/advance from actions taken there. It doesn't have to be *evil* but just somewhere where the constant lovey-dovey LG mandate isn't quite in effect. A wretched hive of scum and villainy were I can cut off someone's arm and slip out before the fuzz catches on would do it; it doesn't have to be a necromantic circle full of dead babies. I think with some ability to act without being scryed upon by an authority with limitless capabilities and resources, some of the PC's might go grey or black and make things more interesting all around. As it is, NA feels to me like London with a constant eye in the sky. Is this not the case, maybe I was misinformed?

A reoccurring npc thieves guild leader or some other different faction would help. Obviously more non-noble adventuring parties (as Jessie mentions) would help, but tell me how one is supposed to form one when the only real gathering place is a tavern full of colored belts? Our nobility freely intermingles with the commoners, and as a result we all end up under their eyes and (for the most part) having to follow them all the time. I am certainly free to wander off on my own but I still want to go boff some people, so I pretty much have to tag along because that's where the action is going to be.

The other night I was informed about the town watch was going to become a new "faction" and how this was going to be a place where the unbelted could strive towards some influence. I'm very intrigued by this... (Also, I actually have previous town watch experience in my backstory! :) so I hope this becomes a step in the right direction.
 
Graham Wolsey said:
Another possibility is to make the PC Noble class SMALLER. Create role play penalties for having a huge noble court. Tiatar has over 20 different PCs attached to their team when that many players are part of a group its going to be everywhere.
Click to expand...

*Elbows John after she gets up from under the bus.*

Hey now.... I assure you that Tiatar isn't the only team around that size. :) However I agree that when you have a large team, you will appear to be everywhere.

(Love the EQ references btw Tyloric)

There is nothing stopping anyone from playing a morally grey character ladies and gentlemen. With the influx of new players we're going to see this season there's no telling what will roll into New Acarthia! There is so much opportunity for growth, good RP, and challenging the establishment - IN character. Plot is there (imho) as the mechanics and physics of the world, it is not up to them to shape the game (though of course they still will through NPCs). That power lies within our characters. We are the ones who are the players on their stage. We choose how to react to what they throw at us and what we throw at each other. Don't like a law? Petition to change it in character. Don't care for something established, make a change! There has been a lot of social PVP in the game, but limited combat PVP because honestly - no one has tried in earnest that I'm aware of. I recognize the consequences are rather... visible in New Acarthia, but that just means you need to dig in, really role-play, and get sneaky.

(says the noble who may get assassinated :P)

We have started out as a lawful good game because that's how the cards fell initially. This isn't to say that it can't change - it will just be hard to buck that trend initially. There will be pushback, just as we as nobles get pushback from some of the more vocal pcs. It's all about the RP imho :)

-Jules
(This post was written while on the Quill)
 
I just read the original post and will go back over the replies when I have a bunch of free time. lol. Sorry if my comments are no longer relevant, but this is my perspective.
From an immersion standpoint, wouldn't nobles dominate a lot of what happens anyway? My character resents nobility in general because of his history, and it actually is fun for me as a player to work around whatever plot domination is going whether it's real or more likely perceived.
In spite of not being associated with any of the established baronies, I pretty much get involved in as much stuff as I can handle. I've literally run from one side of the site to the other multiple times within a short period of time because I hear something going on and I want to be part of it. The only reason I don't get involved in more stuff is because there are too many things going on at the same time and I couldn't physically be present at any more places. Only reason to ever be bored is because you choose to not go looking for trouble. Hats off to plot for doing a great job with that.
Maybe it's different for people within a barony and more affected by what happens with the nobles, but whatever complaints may be happening, it seems silly to me. I enjoy the nobility and think the players do a great job, even though my character may not like theirs much.
Chill out and have fun. This season is going to rock.
 
;)

Soon.
 
Okay...I'm a little late to this game, and as a general rule, I really REALLY like to avoid OOC drama and politics as much as possible. That said, I've noted that this is an issue and do have some opinions...so since everyone else is throwing their pennies in the fountain, I thought I'd add mine. :) Please know it isn't my intention to offend or target anyone, my hope is always to make the game better not worse, so here goes.

My initial reaction to this thread was one of anger. Well, maybe just annoyance. I, for one, feel that trying things like excluding nobles does nothing but enrich the game, adding layers and making it better. While I also agree with what several others have said in that it would really be a bad idea ICly and would certainly have consequences for the people trying to exclude said nobility, I also feel the need to point out that trying tell a noble "We're sorry, but you can't be in here" would also force said noble into a situation where they were forced to engage in RP with people that they might not normally engage in RP with. I'm not suggesting that EVERY noble player in game specifically avoids interaction with us "lesser class" types, but I wouldn't feel right with myself if I didn't admit that I have noticed a select few who seem to avoid us like the plague.

(Bad news, guys, the plague? It's everywhere. There's no avoiding it. /Sorrynotsorry)

I have no idea how my character (Alis, for those apparently dozens of people who don't recognize me without black lipstick) would handle a seedy bar. I suspect she'd have to be dragged in and once inside, she'd sit perched at the end of her chair, feeling acutely uncomfortable and wondering if she could make the people inside better, somehow. (Or Skeld and Katya would get her ridiculously drunk and she'd start dealing poker.) That said, shouldn't this be a thing that SHOULD be reacted to in character and not out of character? Isn't it our responsibility, as players, to be able to handle this sort of outrage in a manner that befits our enjoyment of the game itself? Again, I'm not trying to fight, or pick on anyone, but I really don't feel that this issue should be an OOC issue -at all-. Someone else said basically that someone is always going to feel excluded from something. I, like Brook, tend to make my own fun when I start feeling excluded, rather than letting myself slip into a state of grouch because I'm not getting to take part in something. Because, as much as people hate being excluded, people are also going to be upset about being forcibly -included- (and I'm going to use the tournament as an example for that).

In September, the entire weekend was overrun with contests, games, and spectating. I've heard lots of folks muttering in annoyance (myself included, TOTALLY guilty) about the fact that there was "nothing" to do if you weren't competing. When I found out that there had been mods to do and such, I felt very abashed. But I also recognized that I couldn't have really done any of them, because most of the people who'd usually take part in mods were fighting in the tournament. My point here is that you can't please everyone, so my suggestion would be to find what makes you happy, as a player, and do that thing. If that means playing an uppity noble who looks down on lower classes, super! If you want to join the Scions and run naked through the woods (or whatever it is they do), great! If you want to go mod-hunting at four am (FOUR AM?! What is WRONG with you people??), fantastic! My point is, if you really can't find -anything- to do, you're not trying hard enough, folks. I mean, I fill up almost every weekend event with just social RP, intrigue, fervent debates about peace and stealing Tiatar's food (well okay, they technically invited me). And I have an honestly great time. As a player I have basically zero interest in fighting, big battles, politics and other such shenanigans. But I still enjoy this game because of what I bring to it, and what it brings to me.

But I digress.

The original point of this thread was player exclusion (I think. I've honestly gotten a bit lost with all the back and forth. I am not fast.). I would be lying if I said I'd never felt excluded (as I mentioned above), and I've certainly heart others talking about that at length, and often. And in fact, there are characters that I (as a player and as Alis) loathe with every fiber of my being, but I like their players just fine. I have faith that the intention of any player is never specifically to rule out an entire group of people. That may not be true, but I'm choosing to believe the best of my fellows. We, as the lower class, are not trying to prevent other players from having fun...we are only trying to create fun for ourselves. The world of Alliance is so rich and deep that the possibilities are there. We just have to find them. Just because nobility says "You can't do that" doesn't mean we can't. I always say "Play your character. Be true to the person you've created", and that stands here just as it does almost anywhere else. If a noble comes up to Alis and says "I order you to kill that person" she's going to look them dead in the eye and politely invite them to go to hell. And she will face consequences. But I will have been true to my character.

This isn't about exclusion. It's not a dodgeball game in gradeschool where the least popular kid is the last picked for the team. I know it feels that way, but I promise it's not. No one is trying to stick it to anyone, we're just trying to create opportunities for greater game enrichment. That's why the subject of a tent-village came up. We're envisioning a giant collection of lower class folks camped together. It will be a place I fully expect nobility to feel uncomfortable walking into. I hope (as a player) that the white belts hesitate to cross the threshold, even if invited. Why? Because it's RP! Because roleplay drama is best drama, guys. If you cross the threshold of a seedy bar, or a barbarian (um, excuse me, Leora, it's -free men-, okay?) tent camp, you should feel a chill of discomfort trickle down your spine. "Are these people going to try to kill me? If I scream, will anyone hear me? Can I trust them? Can I convince them to trust -me-?"

The world we play in can only improve. The key to all of this is earnest communication (in and out of character) without accusation and anger. I'm not going to lie, I'm a little concerned that there may be a tiny bit of "I am so wonderful, and I expect you to recognize how absolutely amazing I am" going on with a few of the noble players (again, I am NOT naming names). And while I've had zero issues personally (IC or OOC) it's something that's gotten my notice and I feel it's worth being concerned over. At the end of the day, it's a game, and who your character is has no bearing at all over whether or not I like or dislike you OOC. And if this personality were strictly IC, I wouldn't say a word about it, but it seems to be trickling into OOC and I feel like it should be mentioned as a possible thought of why people are getting so cranky about the nobility as a "thing".

To wrap up (and I apologize...I swore I wouldn't write a lengthy reply, having read so many, but apparently I'm a chatty one.) I do feel that as noble players, you have a responsibility to include other players (which is something I deeply struggled with when I played a vampire Prince) to some extent. I know Jules strives to force plot upon others as often as possible, and I've noticed a few others doing so as well which is really great. That said, I'm not entirely certain it's being done in an effective way. Chivalry school, for example, draws in many people, but not everyone is interested in such discussions, so it might be smart to find other ways to include folks, whenever possible. It might be wise to establish an in character discussion with some of the "commoners" about this, keeping it IC as I suggested before.

Honestly, guys, I'm cool. I enjoy this game and at least 98% of it's players (*grins impishly, slowly stirring the pot). At the end of the day, I've never left a weekend event feeling like I'd been gipped or screwed as a player, but I also admit that I spend very little time obsessing over stats, points, politics or plot. I engage in those things, but I try hard to recognize that these things are complicated, and I'm probably too lazy as a player to get passionate about any of it. But I'm always happy to express what I've heard or observed as a way to make the game better and my fellow players happier. Because the more happy players there are, the better, right?

Right?

I know, I'm a genius, it's cool. :)
 
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I generally don't read the forums. I want to play, I want to make new friends, I want to have a good time and then go home to the mundanity of my daily existence. But I thought I'd poke my head in, read up on some things before the Mod day. Wow. I'm glad there has been conversation, it's been interesting to read through and I thought I'd offer my lonely two coppers.

I play a noble. When I got talked into this wackiness by Juliet she wanted to build a team (gratuitous blame Cory) and needed a Knight. So, I agreed, I read what material was present, I read through the Code of Chivalry and I met with Jesse. I accepted that he was building a caste system, something I have seen die horribly with fire and blood in other games. I play in other larps where people have strong independent streaks and often scream, "Damn the man!" when someone wants a puppet or minion to do their bidding. So, I built a noble minion. I had no aspirations and about two games in I threw away all personal goals. I can't count how many of my after game reports and down times basically say, "I have no personal goals, yadda..yadda." I figured, the only point to my character was to provide a potential compass for the settings material as it was explained to me - play lawful good, follow the Code, try to be inclusive, sacrifice yourself when necessary and support your fellow nobles.

I cannot tell you how bored I have been some events. Those quiet, hushed whispered meetings - yeah, I stood around body-guarding the Baroness. Mods? I've maybe gone on a dozen in the last two seasons. Loot? Most games I pick up maybe three silver and most of that I try to tip the Tavern. Roleplay, I get some and its the only reason I keep playing. I basically wanted to play live action D&D. But, a lot of time the most action I get is when I have to participate in the town battles on the front line and the occasional attack on the tavern. This isn't a woe is me, I accept it for what it is.

Have I felt excluded from things - sure. Have I gotten frustrated by what I feel is a lot of out of game politics? Yes.
I also believe, from my experience, it has been difficult to play a noble. Because first season and a half we had ever shifting expectations and orders from Plot.

I support a Commoner's spot. I want to see the game grow and for all the players to find their niche and the things that make them happy in game. The only things I am really not interested in seeing are a lot of PvP Combat and a loss of roleplay. My only hope is that if the Commoner's get their 'hive of scum and villainy' that there are still folks around the tavern to RP with. The combat thing is because I really wanted to play a PvE game where there was epic heroics, impassioned speeches and lively theatrics. All I would ask is that those who want to pursue the Commoner's spot, please come back once in a while to the tavern. Throw me a bone, that's all I ask.

Happy gaming,

~Ray
 
Ever since my first game as an NPC, I've been a huge fan of Sir Morningtide's style and battlefield presence. I really distinctly remember one undead fight where we (the undead) were in the tent circle that represented catacombs, and the PCs came rolling in, with Morningtide and Elavair leading the way looking all steampunky and awesome. I'm never in the baronial meetings, but it almost always seems like Morningtide is standing up giving some uber passionate speech about something I have no idea about.
I think that having people who aren't really interested in politics in leadership positions is a huge credit to the leadership. I would really have no desire to be in that position because it does seem to constrain your ability to roleplay, but at the same time, the most difficult roleplay seems to be the deepest and best.
Hope you get to stretch your roleplaying legs out soon :) You make a positive impact on the game for me and I bet a lot of others.
 
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