The Value (or Lack Thereof) of Necromancy

[Draven]

That there's anyone on Seattle staff that holds that attitude is part of the reason I still won't travel back there for a game.

The fact you want to even make a comment like that on the public forums kinda takes away my ability to care.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is, don't attack my chapter. Thanks.

Edit 2: Don't attack my chapter over my personal opinions, especially. My position as staff or the work I put into the game is based on the needs of the chapter in my capacity to provide them, not the personal opinions you're making judgments upon.

 

[jpariury]

I generally think attitudes of "the only way we could win was to use necromancy, so plot clearly took the pot" need to be heavily discouraged.

Maybe dying and sticking to your character's principles is a meaningful arc to your character's story. Maybe your character isn't meant to win. Maybe witnessing that is a meaningful event in some other character's story.

This is heavily tangential, so if someone wants to start it as a new thread, I understand, but I think part of making necro "cool" is to give players that temptation to play off of (or with) as their characters. I think players sometimes get too focused on winning as players that they forget that we're engaging in cooperative storytelling, not Live-Action RTS.

 

[norman b]

The fact you want to even make a comment like that on the public forums kinda takes away my ability to care.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is, don't attack my chapter. Thanks.

Edit 2: Don't attack my chapter over my personal opinions, especially. My position as staff or the work I put into the game is based on the needs of the chapter in my capacity to provide them, not the personal opinions you're making judgments upon.

Not to sound attacking to anyone or to gang up on anyone, but Evan's position on staff has no influence on how plot is run. He is not a plot member, therefore his opinions are just that, opinions. Also, technically, he would fall into the realm of "highbie" PC, so his opinion is that his character should die more or, at the very least, be more apt to die due to having something that can threaten a character of his level (Like big bad scary Necromancy, which it currently isn't).

 

[Draven]

Also, technically, he would fall into the realm of "highbie" PC, so his opinion is that his character should die more or, at the very least, be more apt to die due to having something that can threaten a character of his level .

.....Well, that escalated quickly. Geeze.

 

[Avaran]

I find that trying to target highbies systemically just results in lowbie deaths. Highbies get that way because they play smart, not because the system can't kill them.

This is quite true. Often when Highbies (what I would define as characters with 305 or more build, though really is chapter-dependent) die, it is because they choose to stay in a situation - or get into a situation - where they KNOW they will get killed on purpose.

To use a fairly recent example: the previous campaign in Seattle (valley of ghosts) was pretty rough, especially the BBG fights, but the ones who 99.99% of the time ended up res'ing? Lowbies and mid-level characters (which is nobody's fault, that is just how things played out) because the highbies were really cautious (especially vs the Tree and LoE).

In my mind, you want more "highbie" deaths, give them a reason to want to die - a cause, a friend, a noble, a house, etc. - tell stories that make them want to choose to make that sacrifice. The ever-present question: "Is this worth dying for?" Make that answer "Yes." and you'll see more risks, and perhaps, more deaths.

Further, you pretty much have to break the system and steam roll them anyway to make a death stick.

I don't know about "breaking" the system being the only way; certainly over-stat'ing or over-using auto-res mechanics (I'm amazed more of those don't stick) are ways to res a character, but *I* wouldn't call those game-breaking though others could feel differently.

For what it's worth, the last two plot teams in Seattle have over-stat'd monsters and cards (as every Plot team does sometimes...scaling is an art, not a science), but they have ALSO made (and keep making), concerted efforts to bring those cards down to a more reasonable level. They try (and tried) to make things challenging, but I don't think there has been a directed effort to kill highbies (or anyone). But that has been my experience and is my viewpoint, others may feel differently.

 

[James Trotta]

This is very well said.

In my mind, you want more "highbie" deaths, give them a reason to want to die - a cause, a friend, a noble, a house, etc. - tell stories that make them want to choose to make that sacrifice. The ever-present question: "Is this worth dying for?" Make that answer "Yes." and you'll see more risks, and perhaps, more deaths.

I'm not sure it's entirely relevant but I'm reminded of the old days in Ashbury where one of the noble teams was always the first into fights but also the first to run into a ward or a circle when the fight got tough. We used to make fun of them. But as far as I know there was never any real IG pressure (like from the NPC duke or paladins) for these guys to remain in the fight. I guess if it's too easy for high levels to run away from a fight, then it's also easy for low levels to get caught in a bad spot and rez.

 

[soleedge]

Let's reign this back to the original topic please (although someone should make a seperate thread regarding the highbie death incentive)

The question should be thrown out: Aside from rituals, would legal necromancy in a standard mid-level game be meaningful? the three spells I can think of that would get the highest usage rate are wither, drain, and maybe create undead (KB a monster and raise him up to be fodder). I feel that cure has more value to a PC than a cause. I also feel necro is marginal at best because of the effect system we have in the game. Simplicity can somewhat limit the mechanics of spells in the game and a spell group like necro seems to suffer the most from this system.

 

[Muir]

This is very well said.

I'm not sure it's entirely relevant but I'm reminded of the old days in Ashbury where one of the noble teams was always the first into fights but also the first to run into a ward or a circle when the fight got tough. We used to make fun of them. But as far as I know there was never any real IG pressure (like from the NPC duke or paladins) for these guys to remain in the fight. I guess if it's too easy for high levels to run away from a fight, then it's also easy for low levels to get caught in a bad spot and rez.

Topic split to here, as it strikes me as an interesting one for discussion.

 

[Paladin of Chaos]

You guys are awesome for splitting discussions off and keeping topics separated! If you ever want a mod to move posts, you can report them and note it, and we'll do our best to reorganize what posts are in what thread.