Thoughts on the economy

I would be thrilled to see more ways for money to change hands. Even something (as I have seen suggested in other sections) an actual MI market or store with a wide range of items for all levels. Even more merchant type NPC's running around would help. A NPC merchant buying ritual scrolls at a fair market value so players who can't use them would be able to offload something like a planar gate scroll which has no value to the player base but should fetch more than 10 measly gold.
 

BtB

Spellsword
Polare said:
If we someday got to a point at which there were lots of wonderful IG ways to make money, and lots of wonderful IG things to spend money on, I'd love to eliminate this option (using OOG money and time to make an IG profit) - but until that point arrives, the economy is so crippled anyways that it's just one thing of many poking a hole in any semblance of IG economic sanity.

I would support the alternative of "you need to spend some IG "materials cost" money to bring OOG items in to sell" - I have seen (and used) this system in other LARPs. It is a pain in the butt for Logistics, unfortunately.

-Bryan
I have found the IG way to make money. My newest character is a MWE and he has 100 CO, he has read write, herbal lore, alchemy 3, read magic and a couple first level spells (celestial). Every market day he gets 10 gold and the best part is....I am only getting CO from this point forward!!! He can throw lots of alchemy and read up to fifth level scrolls and soon will have archery with vorpal arrows. Everything he does costs money, but it is fun!!!

Daver
 

Davion

Scholar
The case of the rootbeer:

This is actually a logical fallacy. Since money is only being exchanged between players, there is no actual "gain" from spending your own money to get things. There is only a "loss" if you buy the rootbeer.

Take three players: Player A has 10 gold, Player B has 5 gold, Player C has 9 gold.

1)Player A spend 5 gold on rootbeer from player b, who now has 10 gold. A magic item goes up for auction and player B wins because he has the most gold, Player C is pissed because he spent all day earning his money.

2)Player A refuses to buy rootbeer. A magic item goes up for auction and Player A wins because he has the most gold. Player C is pissed because Player A only hordes his money to buy MIs.

HOWEVER, there's something much more important that was brought up and nobody noticed it!
and then finding the affordable 2 or 3 rit items which seem much less prolific in the actual market. no caster in their right mind would make a small trinket that lasts 6 months or a year when they could sit on the rits and throw them on 20 rit perms that only circulate at the top of the economy.
There's your broken economy right there! The game's made it too easy and too profitable to make Legendary Epic Artefact Items of Forever Permanency. Therefore, the high level players, who by definition control the market, exploit the mid level players for their rit scrolls. The mid level players have no choice because there are too few "mundane" MIs. If there was a good reason for rit scrolls to be used to make more mundane items and less winbuttons, the MI economy would be more correctly pyramid shaped.

Possible Solution: As you make an item, there is an increasing chance that no more rituals can be added. So you could make arcane armor (10% chance of the item being "maxed") Then possibly add a 1/day dodge (20% chance of being maxed), maybe a permenancy (30% chance of being maxed), and how about a chaos storm (40% chance of being maxed).... If you tweak the chances right, you could make a nice distribution of many low enchantment items and few high enchantment items.
 

James Trotta

Spellsword
Diversity Committee
So are you saying it helps the game if characters spend money on food and stuff but it hurts the game if characters make money selling food?
Polare said:
If we're purely talking about economy hiccups, the ones that really cheese me off (and IMO contribute to the problems you outline) are:

1. Not enough to spend money on - in real life we spend our money on shelter, food, clothing, and retirement savings. None of these apply in game. Sure, a character can *choose* to spend money for a meal here and there, and some places *might* charge a few silvers for the inn... but basically all of a character's money is spent on "adventuring gear". If you don't need to (or don't have the opportunity to) spend money on this gear (like most high level and mid level players who don't deal much in the production item economy anymore), you save it until you get a chance, or (in some chapters) you spend it on Plot items to feel good about buying a ship.

2. This is one of my personal pet peeves: people can make IG money by OOG means. Anyone, and I do mean anyone, can get basically infinite IG riches by bringing fudge, or root beer, or whatever in game and selling it for gold. I absolutely 100% hate that with a passion - it substantially devalues every single IG action that can be done to get IG money, and makes a character's IG actions to get said money nearly meaningless. Time and again I've seen the guy who works his butt off for a great IG con, or heist, or raid, or something, only to be *easily* outspent when trying to bid for the neat magic item by the guy who bought a case of bottled root beer and sold it for IG money. That quite frankly sucks, and my personal opinion is that no matter what else is done, the Alliance economy will *never* work because of this factor. I do realize though that my opinion on that is in the minority, and it's not something I often bring up or push for the reason that I don't expect it will change :)
[/quote]
 

BtB

Spellsword
Davion said:
HOWEVER, there's something much more important that was brought up and nobody noticed it!
and then finding the affordable 2 or 3 rit items which seem much less prolific in the actual market. no caster in their right mind would make a small trinket that lasts 6 months or a year when they could sit on the rits and throw them on 20 rit perms that only circulate at the top of the economy.
There's your broken economy right there! The game's made it too easy and too profitable to make Legendary Epic Artefact Items of Forever Permanency. Therefore, the high level players, who by definition control the market, exploit the mid level players for their rit scrolls. The mid level players have no choice because there are too few "mundane" MIs. If there was a good reason for rit scrolls to be used to make more mundane items and less winbuttons, the MI economy would be more correctly pyramid shaped.

Possible Solution: As you make an item, there is an increasing chance that no more rituals can be added. So you could make arcane armor (10% chance of the item being "maxed") Then possibly add a 1/day dodge (20% chance of being maxed), maybe a permenancy (30% chance of being maxed), and how about a chaos storm (40% chance of being maxed).... If you tweak the chances right, you could make a nice distribution of many low enchantment items and few high enchantment items.
I am in interested to hear the opinions of those who have "mega-items" in game. Personally, I have been playing for 6 years, this season would be my 7th. I have always been in awe of the 20 ritual item. This season, I think I will make my first. It took me 6 to 7 years to get to the point where I could do it. When did I start hoarding scrolls?...Last season, I infact started the process around June of last year. I have begged, borrowed, stole, made deals, traded scrolls from other chapters and I currently have 13 of 20. I just do not see this hoarding many people speak of. I am not sure if play is different in the midwest, but I can say that making a 20 ritual item has brought many a town together in a common cause and I have seen those items turn the tide of battle for the whole town and seen them pick up the biggest baddest fighter, to the lowliest artisan. I like having this as a goal. I saw three large items 16 to 20 rituals made last year, over three different chapters and each time it took co-operation of the finest and largest order. True the lower levels did not contribute many scrolls, most just components, which they were paid 3 to 5 gold for (because that was fair - supply/demand)

I read in one post (can not remember where) that low levels were being ripped off by high levels offering them 5 silver for a component. Then later people were posting that low levels have more costs associated with play than high levels in terms of gold. I do not see that, but you could look around in-game and you would see that my character is offering 2 gold to anyone for components, which seems to be the fair market value currently in the three chapters I play. (actually it is a little above, but i really need them, supply/demand)

I really believe that this is more of a plot problem (once again, I could be WAY off base here), the chapters I play do all sorts of moding/stating/planning to make everyone feel useful. The players even go out and corral the "younger" adventures and watch their backs, we take turns at it. We help them learn tactics and we keep them up and alive and take no cut of their just deserts.

While I do play 3 chapters, I only get to play once a month as per an agreement with my loving wife. Yes I see myself falling behind others and missing out on chances, but that is the nature of not being there. Yes it gives others and advantage, but being on the otherside, I would never say an "unfair" advantage.

Most of the people that I see against it are people that have been playing one or two seasons. Please do correct me if I am wrong, because I very well might be.

(fear that I am afraid of being moderated - I like to think of myself as level headed - I do not think this is inflamatory, but fact finding)

Thanks for listening,
Daver
 

Yames

Newbie
Your making it a "haves" vs. "have nots" issue. That is not the issue that is being discussed. The issue being discussed is the economy and how it affects the game. Your points are valid, the high level characters DO go out of their way to help low level characters. There is nothing wrong in pursuing the "Mega-items".
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Cpt.MarcusNelson said:
The question here is;

How do we make the economy work more smoothly for all players regardless of level?

If mid level characters have no way to liquidate assets in a fair market to fill their immediate needs then i feel they are being failed by a flawed system. it is not specifically a failing on the part of high level characters who play the game as they should. it is a failing of the system and i am curious on whether or not it can/should be fixed. if not i dont have a problem suffering through an economic system i feel is working against me for the next 10 levels when presumably it all pays off.
While level IS a factor. I feel that level makes you lazy in obtaining wealth. At a lower of mid level you have to find more creative ways to obtain wealth. I am using the word "wealth" and not coin because to some people owing 50+ rit scrolls is wealthy, while others feel 200+ gold is as well. Daver made great points. Gambling is a great way to gain wealth (the opposite can happen as well). Being creative will not only make you wealthy but popular. In the NJ chapter we have/had a great player that would sell small pies. Wow, were they good and she made a boat load doing it (just from my team alone). I feel that lately players are seeing what others have and are saying "why don't I have that?" That's fine, but find out how they obtained it and work from there.

Remember that in The Alliance, you get what you put in. Time and effort=success, don't look for instant gratification.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Davion said:
The case of the rootbeer:

This is actually a logical fallacy. Since money is only being exchanged between players, there is no actual "gain" from spending your own money to get things. There is only a "loss" if you buy the rootbeer.

Take three players: Player A has 10 gold, Player B has 5 gold, Player C has 9 gold.

1)Player A spend 5 gold on rootbeer from player b, who now has 10 gold. A magic item goes up for auction and player B wins because he has the most gold, Player C is pissed because he spent all day earning his money.

2)Player A refuses to buy rootbeer. A magic item goes up for auction and Player A wins because he has the most gold. Player C is pissed because Player A only hordes his money to buy MIs.
Some people don't realize (not saying you per-say), once the player wins the auction they no longer have that coin. So in example#2 player C will have the most money after player A spends there gold on that auction.
 

Yames

Newbie
Gilwing said:
Davion said:
The case of the rootbeer:

This is actually a logical fallacy. Since money is only being exchanged between players, there is no actual "gain" from spending your own money to get things. There is only a "loss" if you buy the rootbeer.

Take three players: Player A has 10 gold, Player B has 5 gold, Player C has 9 gold.

1)Player A spend 5 gold on rootbeer from player b, who now has 10 gold. A magic item goes up for auction and player B wins because he has the most gold, Player C is pissed because he spent all day earning his money.

2)Player A refuses to buy rootbeer. A magic item goes up for auction and Player A wins because he has the most gold. Player C is pissed because Player A only hordes his money to buy MIs.
Some people don't realize (not saying you per-say), once the player wins the auction they no longer have that coin. So in example#2 player C will have the most money after player A spends there gold on that auction.
They are separate scenarios using the same amount of gold at the beginning of each scenario.

To The post above that, This topic is about the economy, not how to make money IG.
 

BtB

Spellsword
Yames said:
Your making it a "haves" vs. "have nots" issue. That is not the issue that is being discussed. The issue being discussed is the economy and how it affects the game. Your points are valid, the high level characters DO go out of their way to help low level characters. There is nothing wrong in pursuing the "Mega-items".

I disagree, I am pointing out that the economy favors time spent playing and creativity and that many of the people in favor of level retirement/magic item limitations seem to be newer players (not all).

I admit I was one of those players that capitalized on selling out of game cakes and drinks to start my in game wealth. My character started off as Bob the Baker. After my first season, I have never had less than 100 gold and have not found it difficult to make an economy where I am able to continue to earn a fair amount each market day. In fact I rarely adventure at all, about 90% of my wealth comes from merchanting/trading. Smart trades and accessing a larger global economy. For a long time I saw that components were greatly sought after in outside chapters, so I bought up all the components in my lands and sold them to people from other chapters for a profit. Then production items became my bread and butter for a long time and continue to make me wealthy, now I have to mix it up.

We are the players, we create economy. You have to look for opportunities. Someone did says something about it becoming easier as your character goes up in level and I would agree. Each deal garners me more money, because more money is being moved, but the percentages have actually went down for the higher level economy / game. Ultimately the best thing for me has been bringing together more of the micro economies of different areas and looking for areas to capitalize on what do different areas want....where can i get it cheap...to sell it for more.

They are separate scenarios using the same amount of gold at the beginning of each scenario.

To The post above that, This topic is about the economy, not how to make money IG.
This is such a fine difference as to almost have no meaning. You can not really talk about one with out the other, because one is an indicator of the larger more abstract concept or "economy."

daver
 
in my chapter, there have been a couple situations where, as the OP said, the low level vs high level economies weren't compatible. something like 8 component drops, 2 rit scrolls, and an MI, and a large base of people still had trouble affording tavern food after the split because there was only a few people who had money and bought things extremely cheaply in the auction situations. it left a bitter taste knowing that everything was worth at least 2x what they payed and more often 5x to 10x but not having the money to do anything about it.

this is where the good sportsmanship comes in. later, those same people have started being very nice to the new players and helping out, letting new people get things at auctions even though they can out bid them.

my point is that Sometimes the Economy should be metagamed to allow lower levels to gain some things and some wealth.
 
Some posters seem to get my point. I am definately not whining about not making money in game. Trust me, myelf and my crew are doing JUST FINE. I don't want, nor expect some awesome 20 rit game ending weapon before I have been playing for at least a decade. The player base has been awesome in assisting my crew of 10 in creating a single 6 rit five year weapon. I am well aware of alternative means to obtain coin. The crux of the argument is about the blaringly obvious gap in the actual game ECONOMY. The biggest issue being the artifical inflation of ritual scrolls. In any other rpg their is a gradient scale of items that characters use as they progress through the game. In alliance however that scale is messed up. There is a signifigant lack of (what I would call) mundane magic items that the mid level characters can outfit themselves with. I see the root of the problem being that ritual scrolls, who's value has been artificially inflated, are rarely if ever used by the player base to actually create small 2-3 rit one year items that would be affordable. Those lesser trinkets are doled out as treasure policy and therefore rare. I have played for about a year and a half now and have 3 such items, all of which expire at the same time next month. I am sure I will be getting more by modding and getting drops. I am in good shape and can mod hard for a day and still feel fresh for big epic battles. Replacing them is not my concern, my concern is the market place in which I replace them. Unlike the over priced ritual scrolls which are a long term goal these little magic items don't exist in a high enough capacity for there to be an actual market. Do not confuse these posts as whining that the game is not easy enough to "win" money wise. If I want gold I can earn gold. These are intelectual musings about something no one, and I truly mean no one, INRL or our game can quite wrap our heads around... a functioning economy.
 

MKing

Scout
For the last couple of years what me and the group I run with have done is...get on as many mods as we can...if we can get a mod with just our team its better..but any mod will do and we opt-out of any MI and get extra coin, we take production if we can use it or not, we have someone with the Merchant skill. We find out that player A is looking for something and we know that player B has it, we work a deal with both players as a middleman for a little fee, everyone is happy. We get involved with whats going on, the big thing for us is we play above our level. So we get in on the BBGs...but it comes down to RPin' the more you do this with other players and NPC the more you can get....with Rp'in alone I've pull in of 50+ gold, comps, MIs and Rit Scrolls...no combat, no ingame skills...just talking with people...
 

MKing

Scout
Cpt.MarcusNelson said:
Some posters seem to get my point. I am definately not whining about not making money in game. Trust me, myelf and my crew are doing JUST FINE. I don't want, nor expect some awesome 20 rit game ending weapon before I have been playing for at least a decade. The player base has been awesome in assisting my crew of 10 in creating a single 6 rit five year weapon. I am well aware of alternative means to obtain coin. The crux of the argument is about the blaringly obvious gap in the actual game ECONOMY. The biggest issue being the artifical inflation of ritual scrolls. In any other rpg their is a gradient scale of items that characters use as they progress through the game. In alliance however that scale is messed up. There is a signifigant lack of (what I would call) mundane magic items that the mid level characters can outfit themselves with. I see the root of the problem being that ritual scrolls, who's value has been artificially inflated, are rarely if ever used by the player base to actually create small 2-3 rit one year items that would be affordable. Those lesser trinkets are doled out as treasure policy and therefore rare. I have played for about a year and a half now and have 3 such items, all of which expire at the same time next month. I am sure I will be getting more by modding and getting drops. I am in good shape and can mod hard for a day and still feel fresh for big epic battles. Replacing them is not my concern, my concern is the market place in which I replace them. Unlike the over priced ritual scrolls which are a long term goal these little magic items don't exist in a high enough capacity for there to be an actual market. Do not confuse these posts as whining that the game is not easy enough to "win" money wise. If I want gold I can earn gold. These are intelectual musings about something no one, and I truly mean no one, INRL or our game can quite wrap our heads around... a functioning economy.
The problem with a "functioning" economy for the game as a whole is that each chapter is different...from the setting of the game to the apl..all these things make an impact on how the economy is created...so it would be up to each chapter to try and create thier own ig economy.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Captain,

I actually agree with you on that. The natural gear progression that exists in most RPGs just isn't present within our game world.

In most RPGs you go through dozens of minor variations on weapons that increase in power/utility as you progress.

In Alliance you MIGHT go from Longsword to Silver Longsword to Strengthened Silver Longsword... and from there you almost sit in a holding pattern looking to find/purchase one of the "end game" weapons. It doesn't flow the same way.

Personally, I have always felt that oen way to solve some of this is to force the distribution of ritual scrolls into a rarity system like in CCG. That way we would likely see more "common rituals" cast out of hand to create smaller items because they are more likely to be replaced. Right now players are encouraged to hoard every last cloak and bane because you never know when you will see another one. That might change if you had some idea that another one would probably pop up again soon.
 
I like the rarity scale idea riddickdale. I suppose it is the lack of incentive to create/vend mundane magic trinkets that bothers me. A blacksmith can happily play in the basic weapon market and do very well with the supply and demand of regular weapons... I know a few who have consistently made a killing off of my brother's and my arrow lust (archery is a blast). Unfortunately something similar does not exist for magic items. If you think about it, there is a huge risk in pumping out a handful of lesser magic items and a massive financial loss if you even try to sell them off. It would be cool to see a new form of blacksmith who creates and deals these lesser trinkets. Perhaps even a set of artisan skills that would make it more feasable to do so.
 

phedre

Squire
There's already a class made to put out magic items. There are folks in the Alliance who have dedicated a good amount of build to ritual casting abilities.

I have 60 build sunk into it, with another 15 to follow. It'll be nearly a third of my character card when I get to 25 rit ranks, why should an artisan who can't read a rit scroll or cast a spell be able to put out the same MIs as I can?

I agree that maybe there should be strengths of weapons, maybe with expiration dates involved, but there's already a MI discussion going on, let's not turn this into that.
 
Did not mean to trivialize your build phedre. Mearly musing. You would be good to ask though. Is it economicly feasable for you to produce 2-3 rit one years and sell them from between 10-20 gold?
 

Robb G

Baron
Weapons used to expire... I'd like to see that come back. it's both realistic and gives blacksmiths work to do considering that the new rules regarding armor breaching decimated their trade.
 

Inaryn

Knight
Robb Graves said:
Weapons used to expire... I'd like to see that come back. it's both realistic and gives blacksmiths work to do considering that the new rules regarding armor breaching decimated their trade.
I'd actually like to see armor breaching come back, but in a better form.

The problem with the way it used to be is that the math was horrendously stupid.

If we brought it back with a "may breach this many times ever" system instead, it'd be easy as pie to handle. You just make a breach tag and have people start ripping charges off of it. You could even then add in a blacksmithing production that would let you increase the breaches an item can have when it's created... or breach kits, that restore some of the times an armor can be breached.

Actually, times ever breaches and breach kits would give blacksmiths another steady production besides arrows.

I've tangentalized... I think the economy being fixed is not a strictly out of game issue. Certainly TP could be re-evaluated and plot teams can encourage players to spread wealth around... but at the end of the day it comes down to there being things someone wants to actually spend money on.
 
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