Thoughts on the economy

I like the idea of a +1 or +2 sword that doesnt not receive the damage aura benefits of being immune to shatter or having the magic carrier. + weapons could be a cool way to help fill in the middle class gap. Maybe they even take a shatter if a ritual is attempted on them to prevent more high end inflation.
 
More non magic items to bridge the economic gap. Piercing weapons, something with a piercing carrier that bypass armor but recieves no benefit from proficiencies or backstabs. Great for coating junkies. I am starting to believe that more non magic weapon diversity could really help the overall health of the economy.
 
Cpt.MarcusNelson said:
More non magic items to bridge the economic gap. Piercing weapons, something with a piercing carrier that bypass armor but recieves no benefit from proficiencies or backstabs. Great for coating junkies. I am starting to believe that more non magic weapon diversity could really help the overall health of the economy.
I very much like this idea, giving productionists things that cannot be duplicated by magic
 

BtB

Spellsword
Cpt.MarcusNelson said:
I like the idea of a +1 or +2 sword that doesnt not receive the damage aura benefits of being immune to shatter or having the magic carrier. + weapons could be a cool way to help fill in the middle class gap. Maybe they even take a shatter if a ritual is attempted on them to prevent more high end inflation.
I am able to do this in two chapters I play in, but they are LCO and many/most chapters will not accept them in. I have heard that "sharpening" was something from NERO and when they split between NERO and NERO international they had to have a certain amount of content difference to be two different intellectual property games.... this may all be a rumor, but it is the only conceivable reason I can see that there would not be a way to make special weapons or other production.

I have heard of "high alchemy" and special ritual scrolls used to make weapons with special ingredients, and I like the sound of them, just never played anywhere that was doing it.

Two chapters I play in also allow me to make trickleblades, a weapon with a spot to preload alchemy into. Then you can dispense the alchemy at will so you swing 3 normal, 3 normal, 13 normal (vorpal serious 3 normal, 3 weakness, 3 feeblemind. The third chapter I play did not want to allow in this non-standard effect. And one of the chapters I play in limits the use of trickle blades in PC on PC fighting.

I definitely like the idea of stuff that appeals to the mid level adventurer, but then again my plot teams are doing just that. It would be nice to see something a little more game wide though, I often have people interested in my special weapons or alchemy, but then interest dies when they find it will not travel the mists.

daver
 

Yames

Newbie
BtB said:
Cpt.MarcusNelson said:
I like the idea of a +1 or +2 sword that doesnt not receive the damage aura benefits of being immune to shatter or having the magic carrier. + weapons could be a cool way to help fill in the middle class gap. Maybe they even take a shatter if a ritual is attempted on them to prevent more high end inflation.
I am able to do this in two chapters I play in, but they are LCO and many/most chapters will not accept them in. I have heard that "sharpening" was something from NERO and when they split between NERO and NERO international they had to have a certain amount of content difference to be two different intellectual property games.... this may all be a rumor, but it is the only conceivable reason I can see that there would not be a way to make special weapons or other production.

I have heard of "high alchemy" and special ritual scrolls used to make weapons with special ingredients, and I like the sound of them, just never played anywhere that was doing it.

Two chapters I play in also allow me to make trickleblades, a weapon with a spot to preload alchemy into. Then you can dispense the alchemy at will so you swing 3 normal, 3 normal, 13 normal (vorpal serious 3 normal, 3 weakness, 3 feeblemind. The third chapter I play did not want to allow in this non-standard effect. And one of the chapters I play in limits the use of trickle blades in PC on PC fighting.

I definitely like the idea of stuff that appeals to the mid level adventurer, but then again my plot teams are doing just that. It would be nice to see something a little more game wide though, I often have people interested in my special weapons or alchemy, but then interest dies when they find it will not travel the mists.

daver
That's really interesting stuff. The trickle blade seems like something that the midlevels would kill for out here because coatings are great for making them temporarily more powerful but the limit to first swing really hampers that.

EDIT: actually I love the trickle blade idea, because it costs money to maintain it via weapon coatings so you are essentially making long term payments to make your weapon better.
 

BtB

Spellsword
Yames said:
BtB said:
Cpt.MarcusNelson said:
I like the idea of a +1 or +2 sword that doesnt not receive the damage aura benefits of being immune to shatter or having the magic carrier. + weapons could be a cool way to help fill in the middle class gap. Maybe they even take a shatter if a ritual is attempted on them to prevent more high end inflation.
I am able to do this in two chapters I play in, but they are LCO and many/most chapters will not accept them in. I have heard that "sharpening" was something from NERO and when they split between NERO and NERO international they had to have a certain amount of content difference to be two different intellectual property games.... this may all be a rumor, but it is the only conceivable reason I can see that there would not be a way to make special weapons or other production.

I have heard of "high alchemy" and special ritual scrolls used to make weapons with special ingredients, and I like the sound of them, just never played anywhere that was doing it.

Two chapters I play in also allow me to make trickleblades, a weapon with a spot to preload alchemy into. Then you can dispense the alchemy at will so you swing 3 normal, 3 normal, 13 normal (vorpal serious 3 normal, 3 weakness, 3 feeblemind. The third chapter I play did not want to allow in this non-standard effect. And one of the chapters I play in limits the use of trickle blades in PC on PC fighting.

I definitely like the idea of stuff that appeals to the mid level adventurer, but then again my plot teams are doing just that. It would be nice to see something a little more game wide though, I often have people interested in my special weapons or alchemy, but then interest dies when they find it will not travel the mists.

daver
That's really interesting stuff. The trickle blade seems like something that the midlevels would kill for out here because coatings are great for making them temporarily more powerful but the limit to first swing really hampers that.

EDIT: actually I love the trickle blade idea, because it costs money to maintain it via weapon coatings so you are essentially making long term payments to make your weapon better.
Actually one chapter I play makes you pay to sharpen weapons each logistics and it lasts until the next logistics, but last season I discovered a new ore that could be added to a blade to maintain the edge for ever.
 

phedre

Squire
Cpt.MarcusNelson said:
Did not mean to trivialize your build phedre. Mearly musing. You would be good to ask though. Is it economicly feasable for you to produce 2-3 rit one years and sell them from between 10-20 gold?
No hard feelings :) It's cool that I can have high magic, don't get me wrong, but with a system like that, I'd be spirit forging and reallocating build!

If one scroll requires 4 components and I have to buy them from people at 2 gold each? And I had to buy the scrolls? Then no. I have to cast a battlemagic circle (9th level spell, I don't cast anything in permanent circles unless I'm invested and there's no destroy/reduce duration flaw or backlash on the scroll), have 12 components (24 gold), 3 scrolls (maybe another 10 gold each, chapter depending? For 30 gold total) My cost, before a profit, is 54 gold.

If I found all that myself, and cast it? A 3/day cloak, for a year? I'd sell it for 15-50 gold, depending on what I made it bane/cloak.

I think we should stop cranking out so many MIs as part of Treasure Policy and make those drops some sort of token that puts the same rit on an item for a preset amount of time, but a caster has to use rit magic to put it on, with appropriate diff. And when the caster does it, the circle will "eat" a certain amount of coin (which goes back to the chapter). It must be cast that event, has a chance of flawing/backlashing, and cannot be extended. The tokens can be identified in a celestial circle like a magic item. But that's for another thread.

Forget to cast it? Tough. It flaws/backlashes? So can a rit scroll. We're too used to picking stuff up, as opposed to creating it ourselves.
 
interesting. so it is safe to say that the answers to the lack of a useful mid range economy is not small magic items. i rather like the idea of bridging the economic gap through the allowance of non magic weapon variations. I love the trickle blade idea, the "mastercraft" weapons (non magic increased damage), piercing weapons (not to gloat but i really like that one). Maybe a new thread should be started but now i am curious about other non magic weapon variation ideas people might have. if we put together a good list perhaps the powers that be may like them enough to put them in the game. I for one would really really love to see a more rpg like weapon progression to flesh out fighters with non magic weapons. *disclaimer* this might be a dumb idea
 

Alavatar

Baron
Yames said:
I guess my issue is that the economy's don't seem to be compatible or proportional. Once a player has a bit of a coin surplus they are stuck dealing with high level characters that already have astoundingly large amounts of wealth and therefore have the power to arbitrarily inflate the prices of Ritual scrolls, and magic items. Or they run into a wall in that they do not have anything of value to trade.
As far as arbitrarily inflating the prices of ritual scrolls and magic items, I am not so sure it is arbitrary.

If you're thinking of the same effects that I am, such as Cloak, Bane, Expanded Enchant, Spell Parry, Spell Store, Damage Aura, Protection Aura, Arcane Armor, Earth Aura, Spirit Link, Spirit Lock, Regeneration, Controlled Spirit Store, Preserve, and Permanent Duration, then I am of the opinion that those items are worth more because they allow the owner to (a) customize their item, (b) use the maximum difficulty, and (c) are generally useful to nearly all players and so in much more demand. They are worth what someone is willing to pay for them in my opinion.

Cpt.MarcusNelson said:
... not have a way to liquidate assets ... often times driving the price up far beyond its market value because the supply and demand for useful mid level items is so drastically skewed....
Cpt.MarcusNelson said:
A NPC merchant buying ritual scrolls at a fair market value so players who can't use them would be able to offload something like a planar gate scroll which has no value to the player base but should fetch more than 10 measly gold.
Fair market value is what the market is willing to pay for it. :D

If you are having trouble liquidating assets you are not talking to the right people. :) You know my character is a merchant that buys and sells nearly everything and I haven't heard a peep on any assets from your group that you were willing to liquidate. ;)

As far as the scrolls and fair market value you should probably know a few things:

1) Not all Ritual Scrolls are "useful". I define "useful" as providing an effect or service that can be utilized to provide a benefit for the owner of appropriate value. Some scrolls are considered by many to be practically "useless", such as Enchant or Extend Battle Magic Duration. Some scrolls are considered to be "nice-to-have-but-serve-no-immediate-progress-to-my-goals", such as Planar Asylum, Planar Gate, Gift of Life, Whispering Wind, etc.

2) The "nice-to-have-but-serve-no-immediate-progress-to-my-goals" Ritual Scrolls are often considered to actually be a risky investment! Quite often they are not needed except in support of a Plot story-line in which case the PCs involved on the quest practically demand the Ritual Scroll without compensation to "save the world/continent/kingdom/county/city/orphanage/hamlet/grandmother/cousin's dog or some other "doom" scenario. In those situations the person that actually put coin towards the scroll, but not included in the quest, loses the scroll and the money he spent on it.

3) "Useful" Ritual Scrolls have perceived inflated prices because they are useful to furthering the goal of the PC that is offering that inflated price. Unless you and your brother are talking about attempting to acquire scrolls? Because if you are, especially from High Level Ritual Casters, those items are definitely going to have inflated prices because the people you are trying to buy from have their own plans for that scroll! They don't want to part with it, but will if the price is right.

4) Scrolls are currently generated randomly (usually unless Plot specifically picks them out). Meaning, according to the Treasure Policy, one scroll is just as valuable as another and therefore just as likely to drop. Since there are just as many Preserve Duration scrolls as there are Whispering Wind scrolls (in theory) the Supply/Demand effect takes effect. Since Preserve Duration is used much more often and is much more useful the Supply/Demand of those scrolls favors the Seller, where-as the Whispering Wind ritual, being that it is only used once, can only be used in the chapter that it drops, and is dependant on the Ritual Caster's Formal Skill the Supply/Demand favors the buyer.

I am also going to point out that I have been playing 11 years and the only Restricted MI I have ever had were generally 1-shots or the occasional Cloak that wasn't really useful to the other people. All of my other magic items are LCO that I have acquired by spending copious Goblin Stamps or because it was easier than to pay me for my services.

I have also been scraping and dealing and selling booze and doing what I can for my current character to build a 20-rit item. I have been working on this goal for probably 4 years, now, and I have to do a majority of ritual acquisition by buying/selling/trading because of the way I have developed my character; i.e. my character doesn't like to adventure. Therefore, that leaves my character only able to get what he wants by using the economy.

Polare said:
2. This is one of my personal pet peeves: people can make IG money by OOG means. Anyone, and I do mean anyone, can get basically infinite IG riches by bringing fudge, or root beer, or whatever in game and selling it for gold. I absolutely 100% hate that with a passion - it substantially devalues every single IG action that can be done to get IG money, and makes a character's IG actions to get said money nearly meaningless. Time and again I've seen the guy who works his butt off for a great IG con, or heist, or raid, or something, only to be *easily* outspent when trying to bid for the neat magic item by the guy who bought a case of bottled root beer and sold it for IG money. That quite frankly sucks, and my personal opinion is that no matter what else is done, the Alliance economy will *never* work because of this factor. I do realize though that my opinion on that is in the minority, and it's not something I often bring up or push for the reason that I don't expect it will change :)
Druk said:
Personally, I'd like to see players who are bringing items into sell, be required to pay an IG price for materials and supplies, as well as have the Merchant skill or an appropriate Craftsman skill. I'm not saying you should need that to sell any item, if another player likes your hat and offers you some coin for it, that's great. But, if you're making hats and bringing them to sell IG, then you should at least have Craftsman: Haberdasher and be paying a price at logistics to reflect costs of production, just as with any production item.
Polare said:
I would support the alternative of "you need to spend some IG "materials cost" money to bring OOG items in to sell" - I have seen (and used) this system in other LARPs. It is a pain in the butt for Logistics, unfortunately.
I sell booze IG. I have spoken several times with Bryan on the subject and I pretty much agree with him which is why I have begun paying IG money at logistics for Valuable Item tags to attach to the bottles of my booze signifying the cost of production of the booze. Anyone with the Merchant Skill can evaluate my booze and determine the cost of production, but people still pay 10-20 times more than the production value for my booze. :)

I also agree Joe which is why I have CS: Brew Master, Herbal Lore, and Alchemy to support my character's knowledge of making alcoholic beverages. :D

I justify my use of this system in that I do this to acquire my share of Treasure Policy instead of adventuring. My character spends less time killing things and more time sleeping/drinking/RPing and peddling his wares.

Cpt.MarcusNelson said:
Did not mean to trivialize your build phedre. Mearly musing. You would be good to ask though. Is it economicly feasable for you to produce 2-3 rit one years and sell them from between 10-20 gold?
[/quote]

I have 90 Build Points sunk into Celestial Formal which is just under a third of my Total Build. And I would say that now, it is not economically feasible in the current incarnation of the Treasure Policy to produce 2-3 rit one years and sell them for between 10-20 gold. The scrolls themselves cost between 5-20 gold (depending on if you are talking about Cloak, Bane, or Expanded Enchant and the person you are buying from), then the Reagents cost between 1-2 gold (depending on who and where you are buying your reagents) of which you typically need around 4 per ritual. The ROI is so poor that it is not feasible.



P.S. Sorry for the long post. I wanted to make one reply post to keep my thoughts from jumbling. ;) I am not sure if this post is on topic or not or even if this post contributes to the discussion ... I just wanted to comment on several posts and thoughts that have been thrown out there.
 

jpariury

Duke
To the point of "Root Beer shouldn't sell for a gold or two per pop" (pun intended) - That is less a function of product having no in-game cost, and more a function of expendable on-hand wealth, though, no? I mean, if most players only had around 5 or 6 silver at any given moment, wouldn't that lead to lower prices and fewer people being able to "make their riches" by hawking sugar water?
 

Ezri

Knight
HQ Staff
Good point JP, but it's also partially the concept of "real food for fake money." I know some people who don't spend coin on anything but edibles for an entire weekend.

But yes if I barely had two gold to rub together you can bet I'd be getting the "tavern swill" over the imported dwarven stout even if I was pretty darn thirsty.
 

James Trotta

Spellsword
Diversity Committee
Ezri said:
Good point JP, but it's also partially the concept of "real food for fake money." I know some people who don't spend coin on anything but edibles for an entire weekend.
I think this helps people stay on site and in character. We want lots of alternatives to killing monsters for gold and selling food is one alternative. Plus, we want people to spend money on stuff other than IG magic items.
 

elliotbay

Knight
Oregon Staff
Marshal
The asking price for largely OOG services is very dependent on the income of your customers. In general, a cure light wounds potion is worth about as much in coin to you when you're low or high level. It becomes a smaller portion of your combat power, and therefore a smaller portion of your income, but your income rises. A massage or dishwashing or brownie is just as useful as a portion of your income whether you're at low or high level, since your OOG needs don't change. They really hold an completely different position in the economy.

Sorry Seth, but since the vast majority of benefit from Red Wizard Ales is OOG, I place that firmly in that category with respect to the economy, despite what you spend on production.

Now, does that break the economy in any real way? I don't think so. Those who sell these items and services receive a greater portion of treasure policy, sure, but so do the people who are better at loot acquisition in other ways, just as Bryan said. It seems morally equivalent to me.
 

Talen

Adept
Anazstaizia said:
The problem with upkeep costs such as rooms at the inn, downtime food, etc is that is penalizes lower-level characters and new players over the people who are hoarding gold. For a 3rd-level character, 2 silver can be significant. For even a 10th level character, it becomes so small as to be pointless. What would be ideal would be a form of an income tax, where the richer characters pay more than their poorer brethren. It wouldn't have to be a straight tax, it can be high-end plot that requires you to have a ship or a keep and the like.
Part of the point is it drains physical coin physreps back into a chapter's coffers. And it's kinda amusing to see a proposed solution being...well, pretty close to modern taxation.

But a levy isn't a bad thing. After all, where DOES your local realm get it's big money for fixing all the stuff that needs fixing?
 

Jim

Scholar
Talen said:
But a levy isn't a bad thing. After all, where DOES your local realm get it's big money for fixing all the stuff that needs fixing?
Vulture looting. :D

I've done taxation as plot; the upkeep is kind of a pain and it's not terribly fun. The key, I believe, is to find things the characters want, but aren't magic/standard production items. In a real fantasy world many of these characters might buy horses for themselves, but many characters (not all) don't seem interested because there is no "up time" benefit and they don't travel much in their downtime. Some chapters do estates, ships, and caravans, but that is with an expectation of more money going out.
 

Mobius

Squire
Talen said:
Part of the point is it drains physical coin physreps back into a chapter's coffers. And it's kinda amusing to see a proposed solution being...well, pretty close to modern taxation.

But a levy isn't a bad thing. After all, where DOES your local realm get it's big money for fixing all the stuff that needs fixing?
It's a legitimate point: most RPGs of any caliber have no vision of a real economy. Even highly organized systems like MMOs (e.g. WoW) are open ended in that coin is dumped into the system at an alarming rate and very little is taken out; WoW compensates by creating arbitrary, end-game, equipment taxes (6k gold for a flying mount, or what have you), but there is no analog in Alley. About the only way Chapters could routinely get coin back in their coffers is by imposing some kind of similarly arbitrary, coin-drain system, eg. coin becomes an ingredient of any Formal Rit above 10 difficulty or MIs need a yearly "Attunement Cost" provided only by Kingdom sanctioned Formalists., etc.

Right now, there's absolutely no reason not to hoard coin, in fact there are huge advantages to it. Most of the really snazzy Formal Rituals end up on an auction block somewhere (as evinced by Traverse City's recent National Auction - a VERY clever way to get an influx of extra-chapter coin) and those who have properly hoarded can pony up the dough; and, since coin for 'normal production' becomes pocket change by the mid-levels, all that's left is MI/Ritual procurement.
 

zehnyu

Squire
Mobius said:
About the only way Chapters could routinely get coin back in their coffers is by imposing some kind of similarly arbitrary, coin-drain system, eg. coin becomes an ingredient of any Formal Rit above 10 difficulty or MIs need a yearly "Attunement Cost" provided only by Kingdom sanctioned Formalists., etc.

Right now, there's absolutely no reason not to hoard coin, in fact there are huge advantages to it. Most of the really snazzy Formal Rituals end up on an auction block somewhere (as evinced by Traverse City's recent National Auction - a VERY clever way to get an influx of extra-chapter coin) and those who have properly hoarded can pony up the dough; and, since coin for 'normal production' becomes pocket change by the mid-levels, all that's left is MI/Ritual procurement.
So lets go with that then. Since the thoughts are about what the economy is lacking, what would players be 'okay with' spending coin on?

I for one would be down with large amounts of coin = large 'assets'. Such as owning a ship, if it gives me the ability to use it during write ups, or in turn tip the scales plotwise. I wouldn't feel the need for responsibility via the coin the ship produces, so long as upkeep was maintained by the exact amount of coin. A little suspension of disbelief, but it at least gives a player the ability to use this as a way to circulate coin in a chapter. (The example given is one already in play in some chapters successfully.) The set back is making sure that these assets are relatively the same price on a national level..or in turn perhaps more/less depending on where you're buying them from/who you are/etc.

-Ali
 

Mobius

Squire
Oregon (and I think San Fran) just implemented a "Shipping policy" (Oregon LCO Effects - Second post) and I think it's exactly the kind of thing which should be spread through out the game. I'm pretty sure that other Chapters have similar ideas (Traverse City has an "economics package" of some sort) but I'm not familiar with them.

These kinds of systems are fun and offer a way to draw a little bit of coin out of the system, but it's only part of a functional solution. Don't get me wrong, I like these systems, I just think they're too small. What the Alliance really needs to control its economic-monster is a Regional or National trade structure of some sort. Otherwise, we're heading the same way as industrialized China: a downtrodden lower class; cash-rich but asset poor, swelling middle class; small upper class who controls/collects the majority of designer items. The base problem is the Alliance economy is designed for a small group of players who turnover money at a standard rate; with the huge population and the staggering hoards, the savings far outweighs the spending and we get the lopsided balance between the "haves" and the "have-nots" which makes everyone so grumpy.
 
I do agree with that assessment of things. I don't like it, but it won't ever stop me from playing the game, and enjoying it
 

Talen

Adept
Jim said:
Talen said:
But a levy isn't a bad thing. After all, where DOES your local realm get it's big money for fixing all the stuff that needs fixing?
Vulture looting. :D

I've done taxation as plot; the upkeep is kind of a pain and it's not terribly fun. The key, I believe, is to find things the characters want, but aren't magic/standard production items. In a real fantasy world many of these characters might buy horses for themselves, but many characters (not all) don't seem interested because there is no "up time" benefit and they don't travel much in their downtime. Some chapters do estates, ships, and caravans, but that is with an expectation of more money going out.
Way we've always done it, you just turn in coin as "upkeep" at the end of the event with the rest of your stuff. If you can't afford it, odds are someone is gonna be nice and tide you over. If can't afford it and for some reason are a completely unloved person, there's a surprising amount of in-game charity, including a "soup kitchen" supported by PC donations (which is yet another money sink- helping your poor down-on-their-luck brethern!).

Very, very rarely does someone miss upkeep (and hence suffer some penalty as a result of starving and the like, like a temporary reduction in skills/body from weakness). But the possibility is enough to keep everyone looking for a bit of coin (even washing dishes and other odd jobs will do it, generally) and a good chunk of silver going back into Treasure.
 
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