To all AllianceLARP owners regarding Latex Weapons

[Gunnar]

To the owners of AllianceLARP,

First, I would like to say I would have emailed this instead, but its my hope that by posting here, other people who have the same concerns but aren't voicing them can read these posts, and in turn also have a better understanding.

I am writing this letter as a concerned player, and would like some feedback please.I have played with latex weapons in the past, and had some pretty bad experiences with them, so you can imagine my initial gut reaction to seeing this get passed.

Over the past couple of days I have tried to take into account the reasons behind passing latex weapons into our game, and I understand that we are a minority in the LARPing community by not allowing the weapons in for the past couple years. I have read Mike's post regarding the proper rules that were passed Alliance wide, but was wondering what individual chapters are planning? Is there a specific form of weapons check training you will be putting your marshals through? Are you intending on trying to increase the number of marshals on your field?

I am attempting to stay open minded despite my previous experience, which admittedly is a little hard. (I played a game for two events, both of which I NPCed. When I came home from what I thought was controlled combat, I found numerous bruises to my torso and arms from both events, and hence stopped playing the LARP.)

While I know change is scary, and I'm not exactly excited for the idea of allowing these weapons into the game, I really would like to hear from the owners what their chapter specific rules are regarding these weapons, and what precautions they are taking regarding them. I think this will help not only me, but others who are 'on the fence' about these weapons have a better understanding of what the chapters are doing to address their concerns.

Thank you very much for taking time to read this letter. I appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Ali Buntemeyer

 

[Lurin]

In Southern Minnesota we've already stated our policy.

We considered simply banning Latex weapons, but decided that doing so would be premature as the vote was fairly considered and concluded and we are a part of the Alliance as a whole.

Currently we are taking the attititude that latex weapons are a priviledge not a right, Latex weapons will be inspected closely for safety and we are also requiring latex weapons to be rechecked through out event weekends (Saturday morning or end of first night etc.) for signs of wear. Our safety marshals are being given explicit permission to remove a latex weapon from play for not only wear issues, but also for unsafe or unsporting usuage.

Personally I'm hoping we'll get some people wielding such weapons safely and they can be integrated over time, but I'm not advising people to order latex weapons right now unless they have a back up on hand already.

As for our monster camp, we will be limited latex weapon use (if any) to experienced npcs, or npcs under the direct eye of a marshal for similar safety reasons.

 

[MKing]

you know theres a saying, "guns dont kill people, people kill people" the same can be said about Latex weapons....its not the Latex weapon that hurts you(unless you have an alergic reaction to latex and that a whole different story)....its the person weilding the weapon....so its the players and NPC that need to be watched and checked to make sure that the weapons are being used correctly and safely.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

you know theres a saying, "guns dont kill people, people kill people" the same can be said about Latex weapons....its not the Latex weapon that hurts you(unless you have an alergic reaction to latex and that a whole different story)....its the person weilding the weapon....so its the players and NPC that need to be watched and checked to make sure that the weapons are being used correctly and safely.

Just because it's a saying doesn't make it true. Yes, a person is involved in a shooting either by not respecting the safety requirements of handling a firearm or by having made the conscious decision to use it. But if that moron was playing with his dad's walkie-talkie, or that would-be murderer only had access to a slingshot, a death could likely have been avoided. Unsafe fighters should either be trained or sidelined, but they're more likely to hurt someone else if their weapon isn't safe in the first place.

I have no opinion on the matter, since I have no experience with latex weapons. People whose opinions I trust are on both sides of the issue, so I've settled in with a "wait and see" attitude.

 

[Mike Ventrella]

I have no opinion on the matter, since I have no experience with latex weapons. People whose opinions I trust are on both sides of the issue, so I've settled in with a "wait and see" attitude.

I am kind of in the same boat. I hardly ever fight, so I leave it to those with more experience than I to make this decision. I put it to our owners and they debated it (with many of the same points being made now by the members) and passed it. Had they not passed it, I certainly wouldn't have vetoed their decision.

We then decided to announce this now, in the "off season" for most chapters, so that there was plenty of time to prepare, as well as deal with other questions that were bound to pop up.

Players should understand that this was not a decision made lightly. Also, no latex weapon lobbyists approached us or made contributions.

 

[Duke Frost]

I propose we all fight with swords made out of long skinny balloons. We can all suspend our disbelief surely and then no one will get hurt.

I will be spending work weekends up at the site putting foam padding around all the trees.

Scott

 

[Gunnar]

I have no opinion on the matter, since I have no experience with latex weapons. People whose opinions I trust are on both sides of the issue, so I've settled in with a "wait and see" attitude.

I am kind of in the same boat. I hardly ever fight, so I leave it to those with more experience than I to make this decision. I put it to our owners and they debated it (with many of the same points being made now by the members) and passed it. Had they not passed it, I certainly wouldn't have vetoed their decision.

We then decided to announce this now, in the "off season" for most chapters, so that there was plenty of time to prepare, as well as deal with other questions that were bound to pop up.

Players should understand that this was not a decision made lightly. Also, no latex weapon lobbyists approached us or made contributions.

Mike,

I understand this was not something taken lightly. I'm sure there was months of back and forth discussion and research: but please understand that we the players don't always see what goes into these rulings, and sometimes forget the amount of work the owners go through to pass something. Whether or not we -should- be seeing it is completely subjective, and I'm not saying we necessarily should, but its something to take into account on all sides.

I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what is going on as far as the changes to the individual chapters, and voice some concerns I hadn't seen answered.

I propose we all fight with swords made out of long skinny balloons. We can all suspend our disbelief surely and then no one will get hurt.

I will be spending work weekends up at the site putting foam padding around all the trees.

Scott

Is that before or after you wrap every player in bubble wrap ?

Joking aside, I know that the game has gotten a lot safer compared to when I played it eleven years ago. I'm not trying to get on a soap box and say we need more safe rules. What I'm looking for I guess is just 'this is what we're doing for policies as this chapter' , be it the same as boffer, different, less or more, so I can prepare accordingly (pack a set of light armor vs none, etc). I guess I should have said "what precautions, if any."

-Ali

 

[Morganne]

I would like to note that I totally understand your concerns about a shift, Ali, because it does represent a change and if the process isn't communicated there's no way to know what went on "behind closed doors" so to speak.

In terms of safety and the "ouch" factor, I have to bring up that bruising and other safety issues have long existed with traditional boffer weapons, as well. I tell it as a funny anecdote now, but when I first started playing Alliance chapters were running on all-PVC... and I would go home every weekend covered in bruises from head to toe. I went to my Doctor for a physical after one event, and was quite literally sent home with battered woman pamphlets because they wouldn't believe me that I wasn't being horribly abused at home, looking the way I did.

Stuff like this comes down somewhat to the type of weapon, but just as much to the type of player. Many people didn't want a change to Ultralights back in the day (and some still don't trust them as safe); I personally embrace the fact that less physically gifted players find it easier to frontline with them, and also that I rarely come home with bruises anymore. I hope we will see Latex weapons to be similarly safe in the hands of safe players, and that anyone who fights unsafely will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

Insofar as Crossroads is concerned, to the OP here, we will be talking this over with our staff during our upcoming staff meeting to pool the collective knowledge of the group before determining a formal policy.. and will post our position on latex on our website when all chapter policies go up for the public in March.

 

[Mike Ventrella]

There's really no big secrets about what went on behind closed doors. The Owners had basically the same debates we're seeing now between the players. As you might expect, some were very much in favor, some were very much against, and some were in the middle. We all agreed though that we needed to be as specific as possible in the new guidelines and that's what took most of the time.

 

[Gunnar]

Right, but its not until we discuss it here that I got to look over the posts and see Gary's about him testing one of the newer weapons where the tech has come far from four years ago, or Scott letting people know that he's conscious of his strength at all times during the game - or that maybe there should be some sort of identification for marshals on the field - or that there has been in the past.

All of those answers make me feel more secure in knowing that not only am I watching out for my safety, and the safety of the people I'm fighting, that the staff and other players are doing the same.

And maybe it is just needing that reassurance.

My hope is that I can walk into my first event this year, look at latex weapon fighting, and go "Wow, I was silly for thinking this was like it was when I used them last."

-Ali

 

[markusdark]

It is no secret that I am a big supporter of latex weaponry - even went as far as to create such weapons that fit within the Alliance weapon construction rules. And although I completely understand the apprehension that comes along with changing to what most people see as a more dangerous weapon, I have to agree with others who say that it isn't the weapon, it is the wielder that needs to be monitored.

When certain concerns were brought up about latex weaponry (waylay attacks, sub-zero fighting) I would ask the LRP community in the UK how they handle such situations and their response was always, "We fight a little more carefully." It was this comment that had me believe that latex weapons didn't have a chance in the US as we don't often put the onus on ourselves when it comes to responsibility. We have two inches of foam deep and in diameter for the pommels of our weapons because we can't trust one another to lightly tap someone on the shoulderblade. Or we look for the rare possible situation where an accident could occur that, when looked beyond the material, will show that it is more the person's fault that such a situation would arise than that of the weapon itself.

In my kenjitsu school I spent over a decade learning the art of swordfighting using bokkens - wooden swords with no padding whatsoever. We would spar at full speed and power with no armor worn and there was rarely an injury because the students had the self control to pull shots that would connect or to land the blows lightly on 'meatier' areas of the body. I think that the first thing that should happen is that people should hold a fighter practice and learn how to properly fight with such weapons if they wish to wield them. And that the same approach should be handled by the marshals and other players as it is currently handled with weapons - if the blow is too hard, inform the person to lighten the swing. If they continue, remove them from combat situations.

It is too easy to blame the implement instead of holding the wielder responsible.

 

[Alavatar]

I like "latex" weapons. I think they look really cool and help with the suspension of disbelief! I have only been to two LARP events that use latex weapons, but I really really enjoyed the way they complimented everyone's costumes (as well as the NPC outfits).

As far as combat: Personally, I believe it is the player's responsibility to be safe, manage the power behind their swings, etc. I think Alliance needs to trust it's players and staff more with regards to safety and think the allowance of latex weapons is a step in the right direction in showing that trust. I also think players should talk to each other when they see/feel someone's combat style is unsafe; this helps disperse any sort of resentment between players, helps players know each others fighting styles and how they can improve their safety with regards to combat, and helps build the feeling of community. And if things can't be resolved then it should be escalated to an appropriate authority figure (in a peaceful and respectful manner, of course).

But, this is the opinion of an ex-SCA heavy fighter that is not afraid of a few bruises. Take it as you will.

(P.S. The only reason I am an ex-SCA heavy fighter is because I have been too lazy to repair my armor to get back in the game)

 

[Dreamingfurther]

It is too easy to blame the implement instead of holding the wielder responsible.

QFT!

 

[Wraith]

I like "latex" weapons. I think they look really cool and help with the suspension of disbelief! I have only been to two LARP events that use latex weapons, but I really really enjoyed the way they complimented everyone's costumes (as well as the NPC outfits).

As far as combat: Personally, I believe it is the player's responsibility to be safe, manage the power behind their swings, etc. I think Alliance needs to trust it's players and staff more with regards to safety and think the allowance of latex weapons is a step in the right direction in showing that trust. I also think players should talk to each other when they see/feel someone's combat style is unsafe; this helps disperse any sort of resentment between players, helps players know each others fighting styles and how they can improve their safety with regards to combat, and helps build the feeling of community. And if things can't be resolved then it should be escalated to an appropriate authority figure (in a peaceful and respectful manner, of course).

But, this is the opinion of an ex-SCA heavy fighter that is not afraid of a few bruises. Take it as you will.

(P.S. The only reason I am an ex-SCA heavy fighter is because I have been too lazy to repair my armor to get back in the game)

What up, SCA heavy buddy.

I really don't have any problem with latex weapons myself, however the SCA link does bring up something important. Especially with the lowered safety margins compared to the rather overkill safeness of boffers, do you think that something like a fighter authorization system would be a good concept? Weapon marshal takes a bit of time at the start of events to spar with people, make sure they're fighting safely and understand what the Alliance fighting system entails, then marks a go/no-go on their character sheet which gets recorded in the DB and is valid for say a year?

 

[doverman]

Here in Seattle we have considered a fighter authorization system from time to time. I have struggled with how to make that work within the confines of the rules we currently have.

The reason I voted for Latex is pretty much in line with what you have heard from others. I feel they can be safely used, the technology has advanced greatly, and they look great. As with any change in weapons tech, I know there will be a transition poerios as people get used to striking with an edge, having to be more careful, etc. I know my marshals are aware of this as well. We are taking the position that each weapon and individual will be monitored and evaluated just as we would in any game. If someone is being unsafe or getting a lot of complaints, we will look to see where the problem lies.

Dave Overman
Owner, Seattle.

 

[markusdark]

One interesting thing that was just pointed out to me is that many of the latex weapons that are made are made based upon existing real life weapons. What this means is that you will be getting varying degrees of lengths in your weapons and not all of the max length stuff you often see.

 

[Michiko]

It is too easy to blame the implement instead of holding the wielder responsible.

QFT!

I agree that the wielder does need to be held responsible. On the other hand, we do play an intense game and even normally level-headed people do sometimes get overly excited and do increase the volume of their calls and the force of their swing. I don't know that the aspects of the game that overly excite normally level-headed people can (or should) ever completely be done away with.

I too am on the fence, not having any direct experience of my own. The roleplayer in me loves the look of the weapons. The whimp in me knows that even with ultralights I sometimes come home with bruises.

I hope that we can make latex weapons work, but like Ali (and others) I'm a little nervous about it.

 

[Gilwing]

Also, no latex weapon lobbyists approached us or made contributions.

Mike, I'm sure you would have had plenty if the lobbyists knew that there was going to be a vote on using them. This is a persistent problem. People bitch on the boards and see stuff that other games are doing...finally writes something up. Submits it for a vote and the people against don't have a say because they have no clue its going on. So should people that are against Rule X that doesn't exist, write up a proposal that it should never come out?

 

[averzwyv]

The solution seems pretty cut and dried to me, as it is two fold.

1). Qualify weapon construction standards in a way that is very specific and testable.
a). Define limits of whippiness, and method of testing
b). Define contact areas, edges, and such that are safe. A 2" diameter boffer will have a different impact area than a 1/2" wide edged flatfoam/latex/sword simulator. No matter what you do, it will FEEL different.
c). Define mass limits both large and small for the weapons, and if desired balance and point of percussion points
d). Define "softness" of the material used to make the weapons, and develop a testing method to check

Critical to this is that the testing methods are reproducable and are not based on opinion. The "too whippy" and "hits too hard" arguements are too subjective, need to quantify that in someway.

2). Qualify the users of weapons in their ability to fight safely with the selected tools. I would recommend a player based note on their character sheet that would say "Boffer qualified", "Latex weapon qualified", etc... Any random shmoe can come to a larp game and can be expect to use a boffer safely, though some do not. Issues come in when folks are used to using a boffer, and try to use a "edged" foam weapon in a similar manner, even though the blade geometry, the foam shock absorption dynamics, and the balance characteristics are all totally different. Qualification would be via weapons marshalls, and establish a complaint basis where if someone is fighting unsafely, PCs and NPCs can relate back to plot issues with the players and then revoke their weapons qualification.

 

[Lurin]

The solution seems pretty cut and dried to me, as it is two fold.

1). Qualify weapon construction standards in a way that is very specific and testable.
a). Define limits of whippiness, and method of testing
b). Define contact areas, edges, and such that are safe. A 2" diameter boffer will have a different impact area than a 1/2" wide edged flatfoam/latex/sword simulator. No matter what you do, it will FEEL different.
c). Define mass limits both large and small for the weapons, and if desired balance and point of percussion points
d). Define "softness" of the material used to make the weapons, and develop a testing method to check

Critical to this is that the testing methods are reproducable and are not based on opinion. The "too whippy" and "hits too hard" arguements are too subjective, need to quantify that in someway.

2). Qualify the users of weapons in their ability to fight safely with the selected tools. I would recommend a player based note on their character sheet that would say "Boffer qualified", "Latex weapon qualified", etc... Any random shmoe can come to a larp game and can be expect to use a boffer safely, though some do not. Issues come in when folks are used to using a boffer, and try to use a "edged" foam weapon in a similar manner, even though the blade geometry, the foam shock absorption dynamics, and the balance characteristics are all totally different. Qualification would be via weapons marshalls, and establish a complaint basis where if someone is fighting unsafely, PCs and NPCs can relate back to plot issues with the players and then revoke their weapons qualification.

For this particular issue, no matter how explicitly we define our standards, the subjective measure by a trusted marshal WILL be involved, understand it is only this subjective judgement allowance that is causing SoMN to allow latex weapons at all, if we are forced to accept all weapons meeting any set of guidelines without making a judgement all, we will simply disallow latex weapons.