Tonfas
- Thread starter Fynwei
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Ezri
Knight
kitsune85 said:
That is precisely the problem and no you are not allowed to do that. I'm guessing you were typing at the same time I was.
*shrugs* If it were legal you could call it a bludgeon. Heck, even a plain stick can be a bludgeon if the rep looks right. But it's not, so it's moot.
Michelle - I AM a marshal.
I have seen Tonfas used in another game and it's real world use doesn't translate well into boffer combat. It's actual use can be used to trip legs, and trap weapons/limps. Which is why cops used to use them alot back in the day. In boffer combat at best it's good for blocking and even then there are better weapons for that. For example a dagger with a nice comfy coushy handgard.
I like the design above. I was thinking of making it out of polyplank foam and shaping it. For those that don't know what polyplank is it's a closed cell foam (like funnuddle) and it is used in electronics packing. You can grab some at foam stores. They might not have it in stock so you might have to order a whole sheet of it (8' x 4') for roughly $80-$120 depending on where and who sells it. Also the coolest thing about polyplank is it's use as a sheild foam. It lasts forever. I know a guy that is still useing his shield of roughly 20 years in another game. Been in several plane rides, road trips under a ton of armor and gear. Been though some tough beatings and it still works just fine. Be sure to buy the right poundage though. It comes in different densities: 1.5 lb. being the softest and lightest and 6 lb. being the hardest and heaviest.
I like the design above. I was thinking of making it out of polyplank foam and shaping it. For those that don't know what polyplank is it's a closed cell foam (like funnuddle) and it is used in electronics packing. You can grab some at foam stores. They might not have it in stock so you might have to order a whole sheet of it (8' x 4') for roughly $80-$120 depending on where and who sells it. Also the coolest thing about polyplank is it's use as a sheild foam. It lasts forever. I know a guy that is still useing his shield of roughly 20 years in another game. Been in several plane rides, road trips under a ton of armor and gear. Been though some tough beatings and it still works just fine. Be sure to buy the right poundage though. It comes in different densities: 1.5 lb. being the softest and lightest and 6 lb. being the hardest and heaviest.
Ezri
Knight
Agahi said:Maybe you could bend a single piece of pvc so that the handle and one end are all one piece. Then the bit past the handle could just be open cell foam. Would need repaired alot but could work I guess.
That still doesn't work, as heating PVC weakens it. Because of the nature of the weapon every time that weapon makes contact with something, all of the stress will be on the bent (ie the weakest) portion, making it very prone to breakage, especially in cooler temperatures.
Sorry guys. It's neat, but not all real world weapons/styles translate to Alliance.
jpariury
Duke
Bows and scimitars tend to use heated and bent pvc, and I've seen a few other types. It's fine. (Heck, I've seen a scythe, as well as any number of axes, with greater hooking potential). Ultimately, like any non-standard weapon construction, each chapters' marshal(s) get final say on whether or not you can use it.
I'd recommend making it a coreless weapon. I built a pair of tonfa a number of years ago, and was inspired by a coreless batleth someone in Texas had made. Use over-sized blade foam and fold it in on itself so that it forms a 2" diameter (or greater) cylinder. At your two grip points (the short end and the crosspiece), use gaffing tape to make it tighter than normal. (While some tonfa techniques involve holding the long end, I'd recommend against it, since the long extension grip is generally for hooking/choking techniques anyways.)
Personally, I don't find them to be efficient, but they're fun for the sake of variety. When gripping the crosspiece, you'll want to block with the long end towards your elbow, and strike long end away from the elbow. Striking with the short end is generally riskier than Alliance combat allows, since you're essentially either punching (which translates as a thrust, which you shouldn't/can't do with blunt weapons in Alliance) or hammer-fisting (great, now I need to look that one up in Urban Dictionary). Gripping it on the short end, you use it pretty much like a short sword, except it will be less effective in blocking and parrying.
Pairing them up, I expect you'll find you either end up using them as you would two shorties, or possibly with one in blocking position and one in short-sword position. Overall, they're great for style points, moderately bad for effectiveness, and something new to do.
I'd recommend making it a coreless weapon. I built a pair of tonfa a number of years ago, and was inspired by a coreless batleth someone in Texas had made. Use over-sized blade foam and fold it in on itself so that it forms a 2" diameter (or greater) cylinder. At your two grip points (the short end and the crosspiece), use gaffing tape to make it tighter than normal. (While some tonfa techniques involve holding the long end, I'd recommend against it, since the long extension grip is generally for hooking/choking techniques anyways.)
Personally, I don't find them to be efficient, but they're fun for the sake of variety. When gripping the crosspiece, you'll want to block with the long end towards your elbow, and strike long end away from the elbow. Striking with the short end is generally riskier than Alliance combat allows, since you're essentially either punching (which translates as a thrust, which you shouldn't/can't do with blunt weapons in Alliance) or hammer-fisting (great, now I need to look that one up in Urban Dictionary). Gripping it on the short end, you use it pretty much like a short sword, except it will be less effective in blocking and parrying.
Pairing them up, I expect you'll find you either end up using them as you would two shorties, or possibly with one in blocking position and one in short-sword position. Overall, they're great for style points, moderately bad for effectiveness, and something new to do.
The problem I'd see with putting that extreme of a bend on a weapon would be that the waylay tip would no longer be at the base of the hand when the weapon was wielded, causing a possible safety issue in the heat of combat. As a coreless weapon, however, I can't see what they would be tagged as under the rules other than an oddly shaped rock or sap. Marshals?
deadlandsrules
Scout
Honestly I would be more worried about how the weapon is used rather than how it is built, at least in relation to this kind of weapon. They are typically used by swinging your arm forward while letting the weapon pivot by the handle for added force, so basically its building a lot of momentum on the way to the strike. That could easily carry a lot of force, especially if you have never used a weapon like it before. I would not allow a weapon like this into my chapter, it looks cool, and I personally like that type of combat visually, but I don't feel it is safe.
Sean M.
Deadlands HoR
Sean M.
Deadlands HoR
Stoneskull_Rockfist
Adept
Wraith said:
I'd classify it as a sap... but that's my two sheckels.
youthculture
Fighter
Two things:
- Yeah, there are weapons with bends. I use a scimitar which is heated/bent, but generally speaking, any bent weapon you see is not going to have an extreme curve like that, and the more you play with the material, then yeah, the more questionable the integrity. The obvious exception to this is bows, but in my experience, marshals tend to be a bit more flexible with bows since they are basically non-combat weaponry. Yeah, they're defensive, but it's not like you're going to be beating the undeads over the head with it. While the integrity of the weapon itself is not a big deal to me since I don't think it'll be too major of a factor, it's food for thought.
- What this guy said:
- Kelsey
Caldaria Staff Flunky
- Yeah, there are weapons with bends. I use a scimitar which is heated/bent, but generally speaking, any bent weapon you see is not going to have an extreme curve like that, and the more you play with the material, then yeah, the more questionable the integrity. The obvious exception to this is bows, but in my experience, marshals tend to be a bit more flexible with bows since they are basically non-combat weaponry. Yeah, they're defensive, but it's not like you're going to be beating the undeads over the head with it. While the integrity of the weapon itself is not a big deal to me since I don't think it'll be too major of a factor, it's food for thought.
- What this guy said:
deadlandsrules said:
- Kelsey
Caldaria Staff Flunky
markusdark
Knight
Not bein' a butthead here, but I couldn't find anything in the current rulebook that says a jointed core is illegal. I might just not have seen the part though. I'd agree that a striking surface of a weapon (whether you're striking with it or someone else is hitting it) should not be jointed but if you want to joint your grip, I'd say fine. Of course, if it breaks, it means that you're out a weapon. And I don't think a stubby core in your hands while the rest is covered in foam would be anymore dangerous than carrying around any other solid item. But I'm not a marshal of an Alliance game so my comments are just 'for example' purposes.
As for their real world translation, that is something you need to see in practice. A staff's real world usage is nothing like that in the Alliance as it too has many tripping effects, long swings generating terrific force, single hand attacks, etc. A simple 'don't use it this way' stops that problem. The force generated by the tonfa is mass x speed. PR-24's move a lot faster and are around the weight of a boffer tonfa. Granted, you could get force generated with it, especially if you made the length beyond 2 feet but you could also get that with a sword.
However in practice with a boffer tonfa, the swinging strikes don't usually work as it opens you up for multiple taps at the torso. Plus it is nearly impossible to spin it via the handle quickly enough to get in the rapid repetition strikes that are necessary to whittle down armor and body points. It usually winds up turning into a thrusting weapon with some slashes in there as if it was a dagger gripped by it's quillion. The only cool thing about it is that you can use it for arm blocks against weapons - which is just as easy to do with a weapon in a reverse grip. Although the tonfa combo of block-thrust with the butt end is a lovely one, it would put your hand in the 'no body part' zone of the opponent.
As for their real world translation, that is something you need to see in practice. A staff's real world usage is nothing like that in the Alliance as it too has many tripping effects, long swings generating terrific force, single hand attacks, etc. A simple 'don't use it this way' stops that problem. The force generated by the tonfa is mass x speed. PR-24's move a lot faster and are around the weight of a boffer tonfa. Granted, you could get force generated with it, especially if you made the length beyond 2 feet but you could also get that with a sword.
However in practice with a boffer tonfa, the swinging strikes don't usually work as it opens you up for multiple taps at the torso. Plus it is nearly impossible to spin it via the handle quickly enough to get in the rapid repetition strikes that are necessary to whittle down armor and body points. It usually winds up turning into a thrusting weapon with some slashes in there as if it was a dagger gripped by it's quillion. The only cool thing about it is that you can use it for arm blocks against weapons - which is just as easy to do with a weapon in a reverse grip. Although the tonfa combo of block-thrust with the butt end is a lovely one, it would put your hand in the 'no body part' zone of the opponent.
Ezri
Knight
This is not another case of "well it doesn't say I can't so I guess I can."
Anything that doesn't follow the rules as written in the rulebook is subject to rejection by a marshal. Jointed cores aren't in the rulebook, and as such it's up to the discretion of the marshals at any chapter as to whether or not they are allowed.
There are a few chapters that do not allow ultralights, though most of the Alliance does. However those chapters are not obligated to accept them, as they are not part of the standard rules construction.
I, as a marshal would not pass a jointed core like that, or even a solid core that had been bent enough to create that shape. I can think of several other marshals that agree, as this is not the first time this has come up.
Somebody brought up bows to support the argument. But Kelsey hit the nail on the head - the rules prohibit striking with a bow. The most you can do is block with it. If I saw somebody swinging a bow around they'd get a yellow card. With a tonfa, because of the design you are putting a very large amount of stress on the weakest part of the core with every strike, which makes it prone to breakage.
Anything that doesn't follow the rules as written in the rulebook is subject to rejection by a marshal. Jointed cores aren't in the rulebook, and as such it's up to the discretion of the marshals at any chapter as to whether or not they are allowed.
There are a few chapters that do not allow ultralights, though most of the Alliance does. However those chapters are not obligated to accept them, as they are not part of the standard rules construction.
I, as a marshal would not pass a jointed core like that, or even a solid core that had been bent enough to create that shape. I can think of several other marshals that agree, as this is not the first time this has come up.
Somebody brought up bows to support the argument. But Kelsey hit the nail on the head - the rules prohibit striking with a bow. The most you can do is block with it. If I saw somebody swinging a bow around they'd get a yellow card. With a tonfa, because of the design you are putting a very large amount of stress on the weakest part of the core with every strike, which makes it prone to breakage.
markusdark
Knight
Ezri said:
I completely agree with you. However, your response wasn't that it was up to the marshal and that you as a marshal would reject it. You said that it was illegal for Alliance.
I have created Katars for Alliance and NERO that have been functioning for over 5 years now, with multiple joints in the creation of it. I have also developed monster claws that have the same design. I believe that such weapons should be judged on a case by case basis, as you did just say.
markusdark said:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2568&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=25
Yeah, Cuz that has proven true.
Anyway,
I'm all for fun new stuff. Make them, try different stuff. bring what you think is the best design to game, don't expect it to be allowed in, but if you can make one that people are comfortable with, and that includes the people you are fighting, rock on.
But most of the weapons that are not already allowed in game, are for safe combat reasons. If you trap my weapon I can not let go of it and use an open handed strike instead, or grapple you. Some things are not allowed because the general counter to that causes safety issues.
Turtling is not unsafe, the counter is.
The combat system has to be at least acceptable to people who are generally uncomfortable with combat situations, without being unreasonable in the other direction.
Tonfas would be classified as bludgeoning, so keep in mind that any sort of thrusting would be an illegal blow when figuring out how you would use them in game. Outside if that, if you do come up with something you think is workable, some pics would be neat to see.
Again, just don't expect to be allowed to use them. Realize that that sort of change would be a long time in the making, if ever.
I don't know where you play usually, but I would have no issue helping you test them out on the experimenting side of things.
dreadpiratebill
Fighter
I too would help experiment, if for no other reason then Jessie has "volenteered" to "test" them.
--bill
--bill
youthculture
Fighter
dreadpiratebill said:
Oooh. If that's the case, than count me in!
markusdark
Knight
Sunnfire said:
I thought that there was a 'no trapping/hooking' rule in the rulebook which would invalidate the disarming aspect since you'd need to trap the weapon in order to do it. There isn't much up for interpretation if in the construction rules or errata stated that the core of the weapon needs to be a single piece. No pieces linked/glued together.
The person could argue that his weapon is similiar to the Bloodraine weapons pictured below.
This is true of any weapon made for the game. You could conceivably follow the weapon construction rules to the letter and still have some sort of flaw that a weapon's marshal finds when it's inspected. I have brought weapons that were disallowed before and never argued other than to ask what was illegal about them so that I could try and correct the issue for the next game. For the jointed issue, I brought the skeleton of the katar - just the PVC - and showed them that the adhesive I used chemically bonded the two pieces of plastic into one piece and that the PVC tube itself would fail before the joints did.
Right now I am having to overcome using latex as a coating on legal weapon construction due to the possibility of causing someone to develop a latex allergy.