Too Much Stuff

D

Dave

Artisan
I heard in a recent game that a player was executed for stealing items with the IG excuse of "for an adventurer of your skill (aka level), you have too much stuff. So it obviously must have been stolen." From what I am told, there were no "marked potion vials, no noticeable magic items, it was all just coin and production.


Whether they were acquired IG by stealing, IG by good trading/fighting monsters/ or just getting lucky with drops, or OOG by OOG theft (stealing them from another player's house / robbing the logistics drawer), or OOG by gobbying them with hard-earned goblin stamps I think is irrelevant. IG there is no reason why a CHARACTER would have to get experience each weekend, or cannot just be a merchant ready to make and sell wares (hell, plot sends out 2nd level merchants to sell more items well worth what they should have). If the reason is because of OOG theft, then solve the issue OOG, but in this case I don't think it was the issue. You can also be high level and not have nearly what you should. Does that give me the right to go up to plot and demand treasure because I think they are giving it to all their friends and claim that they are purposely telling the NPCs to selectively hand it out to a few said individuals?

By the "your not skilled enough to have this much." argument, should we then hold every staff member on trial when they bring in a PC under 20th level for the sake of all the items they obtain by gobbies; furthermore we should create a more fair game by taking those items away from the persons and give them a death on their card.

The use of that statement IG in my mind is purely metagaming, and honestly inaccurate. If you read through this rant of feeling outraged (and no, it didn't happen to me, but as a plot person, I feel offended), what are your opinions?
 
There are a few questions I would like an answer to before actually making a judgement on this.

First, was the character noted for being a thief?
Second, were the ones who executed him 'bad nobility' that decided that they just wanted all of his stuff?
Third, did plot know how much they put out and thereby realized that he had way more than they had allowed into their game?
Fourth, did other characters accuse him of thievery and with the compelling evidence of him having all that crap come to the conclusion that he did indeed steal it?
Fifth, was he flaunting all of it? If he was such low level and had so much stuff, I'd think he'd want to hide most of it. ;)

I once attended a trial in Ashbury where the evidence against someone was, IMO, quite circumstancial but when I addressed this to the court, their answer was, "We know what type of person he is, so the lack of physical evidence won't stop him from being convicted." Welcome to the world of being a commoner amongst nobles. Heck, if someone simply assumed I was guilty due to my race, I'd not only accept it but would actually welcome such strong social tiers.
 
There is just not enough info to really comment on anything you posted here. When I see, "I heard..." I have a hard time reading on. Hearing about a situation can make it seem terribly unfair, but is that what really happened? I'd rather leave it to the campaign & the PC to work it out if they feel there was an unfair situation going on. Hearsay isn't reliable.
 
I have to agree with others. When I read your post I experienced confusion but not outrage.
 
Ah rabble-rousing. Please provide specifics so that the case can be judged on its merits and the other sides of the story can be told.
Thanks,
-toddo, HQ Assistant Head of Plot (who has a pretty good idea what this is in reference to)
 
markusdark said:
There are a few questions I would like an answer to before actually making a judgement on this.

First, was the character noted for being a thief?
Second, were the ones who executed him 'bad nobility' that decided that they just wanted all of his stuff?
Third, did plot know how much they put out and thereby realized that he had way more than they had allowed into their game?
Fourth, did other characters accuse him of thievery and with the compelling evidence of him having all that crap come to the conclusion that he did indeed steal it?
Fifth, was he flaunting all of it? If he was such low level and had so much stuff, I'd think he'd want to hide most of it. ;)

.
Click to expand...

Mark, to answer your questions:

1) I'm pretty sure he wasn't, but I don't play there anymore since I've moved.
2) The stuff did not go to the nobility, it went to PCs accusing him of robbing it from a treasury. The nobility however did the conviction on the information.
3) This plot better know how much they're putting out, and they probably are following the guidelines for treasure.
4) From what I heard, the only compelling argument that stood was "there is no way he can have this much stuff for his level." But to me, that doesn't even fly because I can gobbie 5000 points of production by NPCing 50 events, give it to a new 5th level character that I made, and as soon as I walk in game, can be accused for stealing (yes, it could be metagamely said for every staff member playing at a low level event, but once its said IG or if the character did something that looked sneaky- or your me, and everyone assumes I'm playing a thief because of my body type, which I can't stand).
5) I don't know. I do think he was being a gentlemen to the new players OOG and selling some of it to them 'at cost,' which was part of the argument of it must have been used. However, back to question 4, Nobility / plot let the excuse fly of incorporating OOG level.
 
Bad stuff happens to good poeple all the time. It's plot. Yeah it sucks for his character but that's the game. The strong exploit the weak in real life and in fiction all the time. It happens. Now the coolest thing that can come out of all this is to persue justice. Be the vigilante and form a pose. Kill all those involved. One...by...one :)! That's right initiate plot and and have fun.

B~>
 
Maybe, but if its happened to you more than once, you can only go so far with a smile on your face before you say "this sucks" and just throw in the towel. Aren't we as an alliance supposed to try to get good reviews from all players as much as we can to help the game grow? At least not leave a foul taste in a player's mouth who may discourage others from playing.

From a customer service viewpoint, you can do something like that once in a while, but the death should at least be judicated on the character card. Not saying that we're a game that is afraid to die and loose players - Some of my favorite events are ones in which I rezzed (or came damn near close to), but at least I feel those deaths (or near deaths) were well-earned, and OOG make sense on my OOG character card. Remember that while it is a game and we can always start over and make a new character, there is also time, financial, and personal development that went into the character- it is not some WoW character that you can just make a new one and level up in a different playing field, maybe transfer some items around.

I also have a feeling that if revenge was taken, the deaths received from which may be adjudicated. Then your getting into too much PC vs PC battle and it will start getting into more OOG mess (if it wasn't caused by that already).
 
I was at the event in question, but not at the encounter in question.

I talked to several people involved at the event briefly, yet I would not have the unmitigated nerve to bring something like this up in a public forum with very few facts and only hearsay. What is your purpose here Dave? It seems like rabble rousing to me, as Toddo has mentioned.

The player in question, to my knowledge, has not brought this up to our customer service rep, Eric Stehle, who I think everyone and anyone who knows him would agree is about the fairest and most impartial player/staff member you're going to find.

I find your methods questionable at best, Dave and I'm completely dumbfounded as to your motives, as you are not involved in this matter in any way and the person who is involved has not brought it to the chapter's attention. And since I'm the GM of the chapter and I talk to Eric S. on a weekly if not daily basis, I have to imagine a formal complaint has not been brought up.

Scott - GM Alliance HQ
 
I think something like this should be handled in house and not on a public forum. Unless it is a rampant problem. and the people running the event do nothing about it. But I think it should be handled in a more private setting. Like e-mails and phonecalls and in person. Wne I used to run my own events. I made sure I knew how much was given out at each event. And sure characters died. Whether it's from sheer oopsidy or complete bungling. And I knwo the feeling from having my first character killed off. How it felt. and such. And I have witnessed something like what was described. But it was settled in a character court of such. But anyways I just hope everything egts worked out. If an official complaint is brought forth.
 
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that this is a problem. I don't know the details and there may have been plenty of other reasons to accuse the fellow and punish him thats all fine. I how ever always find it to be a problem when level is used in game especially in a situation like this.

It is clear that the "he's too low level" argument was infact used even if there were plenty of other reasosn to be suspisious that shouldn't enter into the equation IMHO. The idea that treasure accumulated is related to level is absurd lots of low level playes scrounge and save and High level players that give away gold like its nothing.

ITs a bad precident to say that you need to be this high (level) to ride this treasure ride.
 
First of all, this was done completely in-game and should be dealt with in the in-game forum. If you think the IG system of justice is unfair, or that the trial was done unfairly, then you should be complaining IG.

To post this here means that you think the decision was made for OOG purposes, and that is quite an accusation and an insult.

Since it was brought up OOG, and since I was playing the magistrate, I will respond. Normally, I would say "FOIG" but since you have insulted me so and are basically accusing me of convicting someone without any real evidence (which, of course, is not true), I will defend my honor.

I advise you to first read the laws of Ashbury, which are available in the Players Guide. You may note that this is a medieval fantasy world and the legal system is not the same as what modern Americans are used to; however, it was designed to be as fair as possible to players and to provide the most roleplaying fun possible.

Eric Stehle as Baron Ivan (who is a PC) handled the investigation along with two PC squires. I was not there for the first part of the investigation, as I was on (believe it or not) a module as Sir Eros!

When I arrived, Ivan showed me letters he had received from witnesses, including a signed statement from Parduc (the victim of the crime) that had been written during a Spirit Farewell. He of course did not know who had stolen from him, but he stated that the accused was definitely not his "agent" who had been given the items. This contradicted one of the first defenses that the accused had given Ivan.

The written statements, which were done privately and to whom we promised to keep confidential, also had other information that I do not wish to reveal here, as those players should be able to keep their identities secret -- especially since it appears that you are taking IG actions OOG. No need for these people to become targets of people who can't tell the difference.

During questioning, the accused changed his story a number of times, couldn't adequately explain where he had received so many items, and at one point said "What if I just return everything?" Now why would an innocent person use the word "return"?

When asked what the punishment should be, I responded that for theft, the punishment is usually a fine. The accused then said he would voluntarily take a death to prove his innocence. Both Ivan and I wondered why an innocent person would make such an offer.

We then gave him an offer: He could have a trial and we'd give him an hour to prepare and he could hire anyone he wanted to be his solicitor, or he could plead guilty and we'd fine him. Despite repeating this offer many times (including in front of witnesses in the common room) he stated that he wanted to plead "no contest" and take a death. Fine, we said, your choice.

"No contest" (or "no lo contendre") means that you admit there is enough evidence to convict you but do not wish to plead guilty or provide a defense. It's basically a "yeah I'm guilty but I don't want to say that" admission.

So we went to the tavern, announced the result, gave him a chance to speak, and then as per his wishes, executed him. No one protested and despite pleading from the Healers Guild, not one friend came forward to resurrect him.

I hope this will end this here and that the players involved -- none of whom have filed any sort of complaint with customer service -- will let this rest.
 
Whoo hoo rumors.

I think that shoudl put this to bed then doesn't sound like the original complaint had anything to do with actual "he's too low level to have stuff" The moral is if you steal don't get caught :)
 
I love it. People so willing to throw accusations around based on tiny little parts of the MUCH larger whole.

And no one addresses what could truely be or become a problem.

The dispensing of justice for crimes between different chapters.

See, I have been wondering about this myself. So this guy gets sentenced for being a theif. Does the chapter that the crime actually happened in know? Are they satisfied with the results? Will he still be a criminal in his lands and have to face judgement yet again? Will any other chapters said character plays in be expected to dole out the same justice or be forced to be considered a lawless land for not doing what every one else does? Does a character have to become unplayable throughout all chapters because he gets caught in one, once?

Even in the case of the Necro I have to wonder if any given chapter has a right to go after someone if it didn't happen in their lands.

--Chazz
 
Chazz said:
I love it. People so willing to throw accusations around based on tiny little parts of the MUCH larger whole.

And no one addresses what could truely be or become a problem.

The dispensing of justice for crimes between different chapters.

See, I have been wondering about this myself. So this guy gets sentenced for being a theif. Does the chapter that the crime actually happened in know? Are they satisfied with the results? Will he still be a criminal in his lands and have to face judgement yet again? Will any other chapters said character plays in be expected to dole out the same justice or be forced to be considered a lawless land for not doing what every one else does? Does a character have to become unplayable throughout all chapters because he gets caught in one, once?

Even in the case of the Necro I have to wonder if any given chapter has a right to go after someone if it didn't happen in their lands.

--Chazz
Click to expand...

Now THAT's an interesting issue that should be debated IG!

There's also the issue of fugitive criminals, who commit crimes in one chapter and then never go back there. It's not like we can capture them and force them to go play in the other chapter again in order to face a trial...
 
Yea for what its worth I observed this as an outside player at this event. Honestly the conclusion was among several of us who spoke about the matter the more we thought about the whole situation the less it made sense. As far as I know it had nothing to do with OOG considerations, if so Dave you might have gotten a wrong story. As far as I know the individual in question did even NEED to take a death, as Mike said it was a voluntary choice.
 
Fearless Leader said:
Now THAT's an interesting issue that should be debated IG!

There's also the issue of fugitive criminals, who commit crimes in one chapter and then never go back there. It's not like we can capture them and force them to go play in the other chapter again in order to face a trial...
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Sure it should. AFTER a mechanic for it is discussed and agreed upon by both chapters BEFOREHAND OOG.

The title of fugitive cannot be given merely by the heresay of the common man, read: adventurer. Regardless of whom the burden of proof or disproof lies in.

If Joe Fighter walks into a chapter I were staffing at and says Stacy Scholar is a Necromancer then my response would be, "Thanks for letting us know, we will keep it in mind, unfortunately given we have no others facts or proof or ability to prove her innocence or guilt here then all we can do is that."

Whatever PC's decide to do against Stacy for her actions is IG. They could have done the same regardless of whether she was a Necromancer or not.

--Chazz
 
That's how I feel - the more I read this thread the less I get it. Someone was punished in Ashbury for a crime committed in another chapter? Weird but not the original point.

If the question was 'how did you get all that stuff?' then I see no problem that needed to be brought up OOG. If the question was 'How did someone low level (inexperienced, new to adventuring, whatever ig language) get all that stuff?' then there might be a real complaint here and it would have nothing to do with the character asking to take a death or whatever. Level is OOG according to the rules.

At some point you either have to trust that no one metagamed or bring up a complaint to the chapter if you believe someone has. Confusing me on this forum was uncool though. Now if I hear about this event IG I am kind of screwed thanks to this OOG discussion. :cry:
Dreamingfurther said:
....the more we thought about the whole situation the less it made sense....
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Fearless Leader said:
There's also the issue of fugitive criminals, who commit crimes in one chapter and then never go back there. It's not like we can capture them and force them to go play in the other chapter again in order to face a trial...
Click to expand...

Sounds like time for rangers to me - People with writs of authority from one kingdom that allows them to hunt and dispense the judgement from another kingdom in accordance with treaties between the two.
 
well that sucks, my message didn't post for some reason. I'll try again.

The person did not inform me of all those details (particularly, the part about him asking for the death), so I'll have to inquire from him the points you have brought up after he's let off some steam. I know the system is Med-evil and does not need to be fair, but it is tweaked a bit to be more fair for the players to have fun. In his eyes, the player, my friend, feels the way it went down, he does not want to play the game anymore. I told him to tell customer service, he didn't want to. I also have a feeling that there is part of it which was affected by OOG conversation/intentions, which is not something I want to put here. Thank you for enlightening me with other side of the story, I will try to contact him. It sounds more like the "you have too much stuff for your level" was more of a generalization (I sure hope it was).
 
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