Traps, dammit!!! I want more.

That's pretty much why I dropped Create Trap, too, and at the same time. Add on "Not a viable option for PCs in 90%+ of all encounters." I've been using them more the last year or so I've been on plot though, so I can still dig out some of my cool ideas and use them for that.
 

GunFodder

Newbie
http://www.fakecrap.com/pulling-trick-p/1120.htm
These are just about the easiest and cheapest traps I can imagine.Perfect for trip wires, chests, doors, or anything. VERY loud.

http://www.milsimlabs.com/parts.htm
At the top of the page are essentially pressure traps. Load a cap gun cap into them, place anything over 1/2 pound over it, and when you lift it up about 3/4 of an inch, it goes off.

There's no reason why every trap-making PC shouldn't have dozens of either of these ready to go. I'd look at your local costume/magic shop (that's where I got mine), they're a bit more expensive online.
 
Wraith said:
They're neat ideas... but physrepping 'em isn't exactly practical.
Oh, I wasn't suggesting breeding giant man eating lobsters (or WAS I?), more along giving an idea of the sheer amount of imagination in the books.

But, now that you mention it..... Set up a wire trap, if it gets tripped, the party is hit with boiling butter (treat as an acid trap). A hidden door opens with the monsters (bonus points for the bibs with little adventurers on them!) and wackiness ensues.
 

markusdark

Knight
GunFodder said:
http://www.fakecrap.com/pulling-trick-p/1120.htm
These are just about the easiest and cheapest traps I can imagine.Perfect for trip wires, chests, doors, or anything. VERY loud.

http://www.milsimlabs.com/parts.htm
At the top of the page are essentially pressure traps. Load a cap gun cap into them, place anything over 1/2 pound over it, and when you lift it up about 3/4 of an inch, it goes off.

There's no reason why every trap-making PC shouldn't have dozens of either of these ready to go. I'd look at your local costume/magic shop (that's where I got mine), they're a bit more expensive online.
I like using the pull poppers for triggers on traps I don't want to go off by themselves. It takes a bit of force to pull the string so you can usually feel the tension before it goes off. The pressure traps are always nice as long as you can actually disable them. I've seen quite a few interesting traps that were 'hair triggers' that even those who set them couldn't disarm them.

The problem isn't having the trap reps, the issue is that they are rather ineffective overall. If you want to deal with a trapped area, have someone strip down and walk through. Once one is set off, feed them a cure light wounds potion/elixir. Rinse, repeat.

Using them during combat is all but useless as you have to call a massive hold to find out who was in range, and usually those that were won't be there by the time the hold is called. That is if anyone hears the trap go off in the first place.

What would be nice is if there was more 'physical' traps. Such as one that blew baby powder, sprayed water, fired foam pellets, etc. Anyone hit takes the damage. Unfortunately between high safety requirements and fear of ruining costuming, such traps would be hard to get passed.

However, I don't think that it should cost any less than it does right now. A proper usage of it can take out an entire wave of baddies if proper set up and execution before combat ensues is done right. Explosive traps, even if they don't do enough damage to kill everyone, will destroy all non-magical items (weapons, armor, gas globes, etc) and there is no way (that I'm aware of) that you can avoid the damage as long as you are in that 5 foot radius.

My mini tavern was wired with a half dozen explosive traps, with only the far corner behind the bar safe from the overlapping radii (and with a trigger to one of the traps). Set one off and they all go off and you suddenly have a bunch of people without any equipment and taking anywhere from 30 to 150 points of damage (depending on where they were sitting).
 
GunFodder said:
There's no reason why every trap-making PC shouldn't have dozens of either of these ready to go. I'd look at your local costume/magic shop (that's where I got mine), they're a bit more expensive online.
Sure there is, neither of them are legal. The cap gun ones are useful inside another trap, like a mousetrap trap, and I guess you could use the string snaps in a trap the same way, but then you're really just adding complexity to a trap that already works fine. The problem with anything that explodes (specifically those snappers, but the same basic argument applies to the cap gun one as well) is that there's generally no way to disarm them without destroying them, which is a no-no. Party poppers used to be popular on the WC until someone pointed out that you can't disarm them, and they're exactly the same as those pull-tricks without the confetti.
 

markusdark

Knight
obcidian_bandit said:
Party poppers used to be popular on the WC until someone pointed out that you can't disarm them, and they're exactly the same as those pull-tricks without the confetti.
By placing a bow tie at one end of the popper, the trap can be disarmed by untying the bow and can be rearmed by tying it back together. It is equivalent to popping out a battery from an electronic trap.

Anyone arguing the point, IMO, would be in violation of "the spirit of the rules" rule. Traps are there to have fun and should be made so that they can be rendered inert and then rearmed again quickly by a ref. Yes, you can pull the string and still have the popper go off, but likewise you could also pull back on the mouse spring and let it snap shut.
 

jpariury

Duke
I don't know that it is the equivalent of pulling battery out of an electronic buzzer. A battery-less buzzer is rendered absolutely unusable, an untied popper, not as much. As far as "spirit of the rule" goes, I'm not sure a short-stringed popper fits the description of "inert". In a more general sense, I'm not a fan of poppers because they just strike me as a step too far in terms of lazy anachronisms. Something with buzzers and such look and feel, imo, much cooler than a miniature plastic bottle filled with confetti. In general, I like a more mechanical feel to traps. For instance, a mousetrap with a popper tied to it so the popper goes off when the springarm pulls, that's cool, but as Matt pointed out, it's just a needless Rube Goldberg step.

(Personally, if you wanna get funky, I like the mousetrap on the floor of a chest, with a marble in a tube along the inside of the lid, so that the marble falls onto the mousetrap when you lift the lid, but that's just me.)
 

Wraith

Newbie
markusdark said:
GunFodder said:
http://www.fakecrap.com/pulling-trick-p/1120.htm
These are just about the easiest and cheapest traps I can imagine.Perfect for trip wires, chests, doors, or anything. VERY loud.

http://www.milsimlabs.com/parts.htm
At the top of the page are essentially pressure traps. Load a cap gun cap into them, place anything over 1/2 pound over it, and when you lift it up about 3/4 of an inch, it goes off.

There's no reason why every trap-making PC shouldn't have dozens of either of these ready to go. I'd look at your local costume/magic shop (that's where I got mine), they're a bit more expensive online.
I like using the pull poppers for triggers on traps I don't want to go off by themselves. It takes a bit of force to pull the string so you can usually feel the tension before it goes off. The pressure traps are always nice as long as you can actually disable them. I've seen quite a few interesting traps that were 'hair triggers' that even those who set them couldn't disarm them.

The problem isn't having the trap reps, the issue is that they are rather ineffective overall. If you want to deal with a trapped area, have someone strip down and walk through. Once one is set off, feed them a cure light wounds potion/elixir. Rinse, repeat.

Using them during combat is all but useless as you have to call a massive hold to find out who was in range, and usually those that were won't be there by the time the hold is called. That is if anyone hears the trap go off in the first place.

What would be nice is if there was more 'physical' traps. Such as one that blew baby powder, sprayed water, fired foam pellets, etc. Anyone hit takes the damage. Unfortunately between high safety requirements and fear of ruining costuming, such traps would be hard to get passed.

However, I don't think that it should cost any less than it does right now. A proper usage of it can take out an entire wave of baddies if proper set up and execution before combat ensues is done right. Explosive traps, even if they don't do enough damage to kill everyone, will destroy all non-magical items (weapons, armor, gas globes, etc) and there is no way (that I'm aware of) that you can avoid the damage as long as you are in that 5 foot radius.

My mini tavern was wired with a half dozen explosive traps, with only the far corner behind the bar safe from the overlapping radii (and with a trigger to one of the traps). Set one off and they all go off and you suddenly have a bunch of people without any equipment and taking anywhere from 30 to 150 points of damage (depending on where they were sitting).
I've wanted to use a haunted-house style booming aircannon as a trap rep forever, but I really don't think that the other folks who are around the places we play would be cool with what sounds like a real explosion going off, despite being safe.
 

Dom

Scout
Gettysburg Staff
I think create trap should be removed as a PC skill and replaced by ranks of "create bomb/grenade" which are packet based weapons that deliver binding effects. No AOE effects so no need to call holds. This makes the skill work in combat and allows people to use the build they put into create trap. Also chapters can now write more trap mods because people will be actually purchasing the skills.

Problem solved. :)
 

Toddo

Knight
HQ Staff
Marshal
And further, how does creating a new skill (which I would assume would be a Rogue skill) that allows packet based binding effects not severely undermine scholars (especially earth) that rely on binding for their effectiveness? Rogues have the best damage and 1-shot capibility (situational? Yes, but that's the balance.) in the entire game. Combat abilities are not where rogues, adepts and scouts are weak and I cannot see a justification for giving them more combat power. If a change were made to create trap I'd rather see it as something like adding an ability that makes locks unpickable or creating mechanical wards (I.E. if a rogue who is trying to break into a room that has this trap fails the marshal advises the NPCs of he failure or wakes up every PC in the cabin) while keeping its current, if limited, utility. The only real barrier to trap mods is time, which is honestly wasted much of the time as PCs tend to prison other players and throw them at traps. Perhaps allowing Shatter Spirit (since it's a rule now) as a valid effect for the massive mechanical traps should be considered. Because honestly, if a ceiling fell on someone do you really rthink a life spell will do it?

Another tactic is making traps that interact with the module. I have no problem with making a mod that says "if you don't disarm this trap you just collapsed the hallway and cannot proceed."
 

Wraith

Newbie
Yeah, that right there is the problem. It is far too easy for PCs to bypass traps via just having someone strip down and walk in, then get picked up with cure light wounds. If I was out to solve this problem, I'd do it by making it much, much more cost effective to create and deploy traps with effects other than just damage and/or making -really big- explosive/acid traps death effects.

Cure light wounds putting someone back together from a fine red mist stretches the imagination.
 

markusdark

Knight
Toddo said:
Because honestly, if a ceiling fell on someone do you really think a life spell will do it?
Although I agree with you 100% on this, this same though could be used on so many IG effects. Oh and quick note - I made a ceiling trap of falling columns by using the collapsable/expandable laundry baskets.

Although I love traps, I have a dislike of the idea of trap mods as it basically pigeon holes the trap experience. It is almost like a holiday for some games. "We won't bother with traps for the year except at this event where we hold the trap mod." Traps should be integrated into the game just as magic, alchemy and sword swinging. It should be a part of common adventuring (as locks should be as well) and not a highlighted, solitary event - even if it is just a pause for someone to give the affected person a curative.
 

jpariury

Duke
Why?

Not trying to be a putz, but where is it writ that every skill is intended or required to be "worth it"? What imperative exists to require that traps be used as often as spells? I mean, there's a world of difference between "I'd like to try a game with X" and "This game must be like Y."
 

markusdark

Knight
Not being a putz at all. It's a valid question. It's not written anywhere. It is also not written that a weekend event has to have any combat - but that is an extreme example. The way I feel about it though is that traps, and interesting ones at that, help add flavor to the game and that it shouldn't take a lot of extra effort to put some in at every event instead of making up for it all with a trap mod once or twice a year.

The idea of a skill being 'worth it' though is the mainstay of the cost of skills. If combat rarely took place, the cost to reach your first eviserate would be a lot cheaper.
 
Because traps require more out of game effort during the game weekend than magic does. Packets can be made 100% ahead of time. Traps require game time to set up.
 

Dom

Scout
Gettysburg Staff
so lets find a way to simplify traps
 

wowy319

Artisan
Forgive me if I'm missing something major by asking this... but *why* are disposable traps with components like poppers not allowed? They're bought in bulk and are meant to be used and discarded. I've been in other games that use popper traps all the time, and they've made some incredibly elaborate traps with them. They're disarmed by cutting the string, and in the end the outcome was no different than if they'd gone off. They're also pretty easy to clean up. A whole lot of string-cutting can go on with non-disposable traps as it is, so what's the difference if the string happens to have a noise-maker attached to it?

inb4 I completely misunderstood something vital in the discussion.
 

jpariury

Duke
wowy319 said:
Forgive me if I'm missing something major by asking this... but *why* are disposable traps with components like poppers not allowed?
Seattle and Oregon disallow (or at least heavily discourage) them because there is no method of rendering them inert without damaging them.

Take your standard mousetrap trigger, attached directly to body of your trap. If it has a tripwire connected to the mousetrap, simply untying the string is not sufficient for disarming the trap - the mousetrap can still go off. You have to unlatch the mousetrap arm in order for the trap to be properly disarmed. Once it's disarmed, it's pretty easy to rearm the trap and set it back in a "ready" state.

Now replace the mousetrap with a party popper. Yes, you can untie the tripwire, but as we see in the mousetrap example, that doesn't really "disarm" it. Just like hitting the plate on the mousetrap will still set off that trigger, pulling the string on the popper will still set that trigger off. There are only two ways to render the party popper inert - cut or pull the pullstring from the popper entirely or unravel the tiny explosive, both of which damage the trigger irreparably.
 
Specifically:
ARB said:
A trap may be disarmed by any means
which does not permanently destroy the trap
which prevents the trap from producing a noise
or a light. For example, popping a battery clip
off a battery or moving a mouse trap bar slowly
so that it does not snap shut represents the disarming
of the trap.
Permanent damage means treating the trap
in such a way that a marshal cannot fix the damage
within ten minutes or needs a tool.
Emphasis mine. Cutting a string doesn't affect the trap in any way; a cut/untied string doesn't disarm the trap. It will still go off if moved, destroyed, potentially stepped on, etc. A party popper can't be disarmed without destroying it.
 
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