Traps, dammit!!! I want more.

wowy319

Artisan
Well that comes to the point I was making: if the trap is meant to be disposable, then what's the concern? Yes, the rules as they are state otherwise, but I thought part of this discussion was about maybe making a change to the rules as well. People mentioned an overhaul of traps, and I thought that might be a good place to start.
 

jpariury

Duke
wowy319 said:
Well that comes to the point I was making: if the trap is meant to be disposable, then what's the concern?
Sorry, the question I was answering was "why are disposable traps with components like poppers not allowed?". "Why shouldn't we change the rules to allow them" is an entirely different question.

Personally, from a waste perspective, I prefer encouraging reusable trap reps. Much like I preferred getting rid of tags where possible, I prefer not having confetti lobbed about. Is it easy to clean up? Sure. But ease of clean-up has never really prevented people from leaving trash strewn about, so it's just one less thing to consider.

It also doesn't really answer the question of "what marks the trigger as disarmed"? As was mentioned, simply untying a larger string from the pull-string doesn't seem right... I can still pull the pull string and blow the trigger, so it's still armed, right? Pulling the string isn't what "arms" the trigger (unlike Mark's argument about resetting mousetraps).

As for "should we change the rules to allow for the destruction of trap reps", I'd prefer not. Even if the expenditure of a trap may render the physrep unusable, I don't believe it's a good policy to make the successful disarming of it render it unusable. I think maintaining use of a disarmed trap is a Good Thing®. Even in mods where no tag is going to be handed over for the trap, that shouldn't bar a creative player from making use of the trap they just disarmed for their own purposes on that same mod.
 

wowy319

Artisan
...you and I are talking about completely different kinds of string poppers. I'm talking about these: http://www.fakecrap.com/pulling-trick-p/1120.htm where it's pretty easy to tell if it's disarmed. They're considered disarmed in games that use them when they're no longer connected to what would pull them apart and cause them to go off. Usually meaning the strings are cut. They can be salvaged by players if they're disarmed in a way where you can reconnect the strings to the device. There's a lot of room for versatility and very little mess with these poppers.

And I'm not saying allow the destruction of all trap reps. There's a reason I used the qualifier "disposable" when talking about these traps. I'd be stunned if plot/rules teams couldn't come up with a creative way to mark them that doesn't break immersion.
 

jpariury

Duke
wowy319 said:
...you and I are talking about completely different kinds of string poppers.
That's true. Helps if you're more specific,. :)

They're considered disarmed in games that use them when they're no longer connected to what would pull them apart and cause them to go off. Usually meaning the strings are cut. They can be salvaged by players if they're disarmed in a way where you can reconnect the strings to the device.
Do you have pictures? I'm not seeing a way to remove the string from them without rendering the trigger unusable. Seems like you can cut them pretty shirt, but either it's too short to be usable at all, or it's just long enough to be pulled on its own.
 

markusdark

Knight
Unless talking about just noisemaker traps, this trigger could be considered disarmed if it is not attached to the physical representation of the trap (not tied to the weapon, not attached to the 32 cubic inch rep, etc.) And, in the case of poppers, a caveat could be put in that if the string is not bow tied to a longer trap line, it is considered disarmed.
 

wowy319

Artisan
In the case of cutting them short, then they're still not attached to anything that could pull them. Short of the disarmer picking up the popper with their tools and setting it off manually, it's pretty safe to say that the trap's not going to go off. I think looking at that and saying the trap is still armed is just nitpicking. And markusdark's (I apologize for not knowing a proper name to use) suggestion works pretty well, too. The strings on these noisemakers are pretty long, and can be bow-tied on without any trouble.
 

jpariury

Duke
wowy319 said:
In the case of cutting them short, then they're still not attached to anything that could pull them.
How are they still usable, then? My general premise is that if a trap is disarmed, it should still be usable, and I'm not seeing that being met by cutting the strings short.

markusdark said:
Unless talking about just noisemaker traps, this trigger could be considered disarmed if it is not attached to the physical representation of the trap (not tied to the weapon, not attached to the 32 cubic inch rep, etc.)
Sounds messy. A trap is a body + a trigger + tag. If you detach the trigger from the body of the trap, it's no longer a trap at all. When you bring in a trap, you should be having a marshal looking at the whole thing. Having them be distinct object means having to tag two different things. You shouldn't bring in a tag for, say, a long sword, then bring in some foam and some pipe, keep them distinct, and expect people to understand that the two parts represent an "unusable long sword". You also don't remove the foam tube from a sword that has been shattered or destroyed. By the same token, as easy to do as it would be, I don't think disarming a trap should be as simple as "remove the tag".

And, in the case of poppers, a caveat could be put in that if the string is not bow tied to a longer trap line, it is considered disarmed.
Enh, for the sake of consistency, I'm not much a fan of the idea. It's inconsistent and just grates against grain for me.

In general, I think mousetraps are fairly cheap and easy to use. They're reusable, and substantially less prone to become more flotsam to pick up at the end of an event. I think they're a solid baseline to start from - they generally take at least 30 seconds to set up, are reusable, maintain their function when disarmed, and aren't particularly likely to be trashed. I don't know that mousetraps represent a barrier to wider trap use. Can you get more creative? Absolutely, and I love to see more inventive variations on the theme, or other more technologically-enhanced devices (loud alarms, for example), but I'm not a big fan of poppers, for pretty much all the reasons I cited.
 
Mouse traps, I think, are a big part of why traps are unpopular and little used. Many people are uncomfortable with them and avoid traps altogether because of the out-of-game dislike for things that snap at your fingers.
 

jpariury

Duke
I don't know that any of the Seattle or Oregon players have complained about using mousetraps and not being allowed poppers (much less "If only I could use poppers, I'd be bombing the shinola out of your monsters!"). They certainly haven't voiced such to me, at least - the complaint has been "my mousetrap went off in combat and no one heard it". It was later replaced by a loud alarm thing (albeit a somewhat pricey one).

No one on Oregon plot who is responsible for setting up traps has really complained about not being allowed poppers... we've looked at dollar store window alarms, and a few other things, but mainly just for the sake of variety rather than any particular issue with mouse traps. I don't want to speak for Matt, but he's been kind of the master of traps for a while, and has a variety of buzzers and whistles and gewgaws for both one of his characters and his plot team. Personally, I find mousetraps pretty easy to disarm: place your whole hand over the swing arm, hold it down, and slowly release. I think it was the Jersey Tournament of Champions a while back that someone was surprised about how quickly I went through their trap mod. I've never run into the danger of getting my fingers stung.

Are poppers being disallowed elsewhere?
 
As with a great many things, it's more about perception than fact, and one person's bad experience can turn a lot of people off on something.
 

jpariury

Duke
I'm operating on two hours of sleep, so forgive my denseness: Say what? I'm asking if there are other chapters disallowing poppers. If they're not, then I'm not following the logic of "Oregon doesn't allow poppers, and someone in Michigan once had a bad sting from a mousetrap, so people Alliance-wide aren't using many traps".
 
It's a result in aggregate. Over time, for many players, the idea that traps were simply not worth it for a host of reasons has taken root. What was once by my perception "Because a, b and c all together are true, traps aren't that great" has become "Traps blow because a, b and c are all dealbreakers on their own; together they make traps the worst part of the game. Just stay clear."
 

FOIGofWar

Artisan
You will happy to know I just lit some fires under rears.

HQ will have traps next season. Traps galore.

And locks. Everywhere.

Bring your rogue with you, you have been warned. :thumbsup:
 

FOIGofWar

Artisan
For those interested, see viewtopic.php?f=58&t=13009

If you can come play our game, please come play with our toys.

If you can't, and would like to help, please contact me. I'm more than willing to buy boxes of death from out of towners (cash or gobbies) to make this happen often and with variety.
 
If you find someone who can build OOG traps and is willing to contract out to NH, drop hints that I'd be willing to wash their feet, even it's a dude.
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
So when it comes to locks, how are you physrepping the actual lock? the ARB says to "practice picking locks" but in Alberta it is illegal to have lock picks unless you are an actual locksmith (as in fully licensed and registered).

We want to add a ton of locks and traps, but its the physrep locks I am having trouble getting.
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
yup. That will work well. They have the same law (or at least very similar) to us. Sure, you can buy them, but if the police catch you with them, you are in deep doo-doo! :ninja:
 

RavenSis

Newbie
One of my favorite, simple, trigger systems is using the workings from birthday cards with music (or, even better, recordable messages!). They're quick and easy to set up and make, and if you get the recordable ones, you can have the trap even say, BOOM. 20 acid.
 
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