Undead and Gifts of Life and Death

Axle

Newbie
So undead are harmed by earth magics and healed by chaos/necromancy.

Does that mean that I can throw a Gift of Life at an undead and instantly kill it?

If I throw a Gift of Death at an undead does it get healed or picked back up if it has been slayed and is still in that 5 minute window before permadeath?

Also does Gift of Death count as necromancy or is it just an earth spell?
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
Gift is usually "No effect" on active undead regardless of the Gift
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
And Gift is Gift, it's neither necromancy nor earth. You want a longer rant, ask me Friday night.............
 
Samyania knows what she's talking about when it comes to this stuff, so I'm just here to second everything she said.

On a semi-related note, this means that if you grant someone the Gift of Death, you can never be tried for Necromancy! So have fun with that, if that's your thing.

One thing to add, though: Undead usually crumble to dust when they hit 0 Body, so they typically never actually become a valid target for Life even if they weren't immune to it, and the fact that they aren't actually alive means they're not a valid target for Death even if they're still shambling around.
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
On a semi-related note, this means that if you grant someone the Gift of Death, you can never be tried for Necromancy!
Never? It's that easy? I'm quoting you in the trial.

One thing to add, though: Undead usually crumble to dust when they hit 0 Body, so they typically never actually become a valid target for Life even if they weren't immune to it.
Unless they're Lesser and you manage to down them in their death count. But that's. Pretty quick.
 
Never? It's that easy? I'm quoting you in the trial.
Well, if you walk up and Gift of Death someone, and that's ALL you've done to them, they can't try you for Necromancy. Murder, maybe, but not Necromancy. :D


Unless they're Lesser and you manage to down them in their death count. But that's. Pretty quick.
That's a case I considered 'fringe', but yes, a creature raised with Create Undead can be raised by Life if they are downed within 5 minutes of their original death. I'm not sure how frequently Create Undead is used in other chapters, though, so I tried to keep my commentary centered on more 'permanent' (for lack of a better word) Undead sent out by NPC camp. :)

ETA: At risk of being a spoiler and enabling dirty dirty metagaming, almost all of the Undead Monster Cards I've seen specify the creature crumbles to dust at 0 Body, so use of the Create Undead spell is the only scenario I can think of off the top of my exhausted head that would enable the above scenario. If there are others, they're not springing to mind. :(
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Back when I was writing undead cards in my chapter Life would destroy undead or at least do gobs of damage. That too was a fringe case, and considered an oddity of those undead. It isn't impossible, but very very unlikely that Life will harm undead.
 

Axle

Newbie
Thanks for the replies everyone.

Another scenario I just thought of. What about an enemy, pc or npc that is reverse life forced? Would life and death gifts work the same way or would they be reversed as well?
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
"A reversed creature that normally has a metabolism becomes immune to life and death. A reversed creature that is normally immune to life and death remains immune to life and death - unless life or death is a specific weakness of the Reversed Being." From the ritual text. So. A creature under the effect of "Reverse Life Force" is usually gonna be immune to Gift, regardless of the direction they were Reversed.

(Had to check. They should really capitalize Life and Death or clarify "Gift.")
 

Alavatar

Baron
You can find the Ritual Scroll text here: https://alliancelarp.com/forum/pages/rituals/

Within, Reverse Life Force has the following passage:
OOG:
No Metabolism gives immunity to sleep, poison, waylay, wither, disease, and drain. A reversed creature that normally has a metabolism becomes immune to life and death. A reversed creature that is normally immune to life and death remains immune to life and death - unless life or death is a specific weakness of the Reversed Being. The casting of Reverse Life Force in no way changes the appearance of the target creature. For example if Moe, who just became a death knight, has Reverse Life Force on him still looks like a death knight.
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
Hah, faster on the ritual draw than Alavatar!! Do I win a prize?? Do I have to be the next person to high-five half of Fortannis??
 

Axle

Newbie
"A reversed creature that normally has a metabolism becomes immune to life and death. A reversed creature that is normally immune to life and death remains immune to life and death - unless life or death is a specific weakness of the Reversed Being." From the ritual text. So. A creature under the effect of "Reverse Life Force" is usually gonna be immune to Gift, regardless of the direction they were Reversed.

(Had to check. They should really capitalize Life and Death or clarify "Gift.")
Actually I think that the immunity to life and death is an example that they give of a creature that could be under the effect of the ritual.
I.E. the creature already had Gift immunity doesn't have it canceled out by reverse life force.
This is why I'm a bit confused by the ritual with the wording that is there.

Edit to add this: So my question is for creatures that do not have a base Gift immunity that undergo reverse life force. Do the effects of Death and Life swap or remain the same?
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
Most creatures under Reverse Life Force are gonna be undead, since the opposite direction is only useful if you're a) using it to mess with someone or b) going to somewhere with inhospitable conditions and only have a morally flexible Earth ritualist available, and not a Planar Asylum. Also, it's Necromantic if you cast it on the living. So. That's going to dissuade most people. So, as most people under Reverse Life Force are undead, and most undead are immune to Gift (when not written by @MaxIrons), it's pretty logical to assume a creature under the effect of this ritual had immunity to Gift going in, which is why it's mentioned specifically. Does that make sense? Did I clear something up or elfsplain something that was already clear or just make something more confusing?
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
Imma need a March of the Untiring for that March of the Untiring
 

Alavatar

Baron
Per the Reverse Life Force text:
  • If you have a metabolism normally, such as a normal human, you become immune to life and death.
  • If you are already immune to life and death, such as the typical Undead, or an Elemental, then you remain immune to life and death.
  • If you do not have a metabolism normally, and you are susceptible to life and death, then you remain susceptible to life and death (Reverse Life Force explicitly grants immunity to life and death only to creatures that normally have a metabolism)
 

Axle

Newbie
Most creatures under Reverse Life Force are gonna be undead, since the opposite direction is only useful if you're a) using it to mess with someone or b) going to somewhere with inhospitable conditions and only have a morally flexible Earth ritualist available, and not a Planar Asylum. Also, it's Necromantic if you cast it on the living. So. That's going to dissuade most people. So, as most people under Reverse Life Force are undead, and most undead are immune to Gift (when not written by @MaxIrons), it's pretty logical to assume a creature under the effect of this ritual had immunity to Gift going in, which is why it's mentioned specifically. Does that make sense? Did I clear something up or elfsplain something that was already clear or just make something more confusing?
No, I learned that it's necromantic to cast on the living. Also learned that undead are immune to Gift, which makes sense.

I'm just curious about the edge case. Like... my comrade has been captured and Reverse Life Forced by a necromancer's experiment. They don't have immunity to Gift. They go down in the battle and I don't want them to die. Do I use Gift of Life or Death to pick them back up?
 

Axle

Newbie
No, I learned that it's necromantic to cast on the living. Also learned that undead are immune to Gift, which makes sense.

I'm just curious about the edge case. Like... my comrade has been captured and Reverse Life Forced by a necromancer's experiment. They don't have immunity to Gift. They go down in the battle and I don't want them to die. Do I use Gift of Life or Death to pick them back up?
Ok nevermind, just reread the part about going from metabolism to no metabolism makes one immune to Life and Death. Sorry folks!
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
They go down in the battle and I don't want them to die.
You have one minute to drag them off the battlefield, find yourself that morally flexible Earth ritualist from the above outlier example, and explain the situation to the Earth ritualist.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
I'm just curious about the edge case. Like... my comrade has been captured and Reverse Life Forced by a necromancer's experiment. They don't have immunity to Gift. They go down in the battle and I don't want them to die. Do I use Gift of Life or Death to pick them back up?
You have 1 minute to hit them with a cause x wounds spell (necromancy).
 
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