Was the Gift "school" hard to grasp?

Nobody is saying "oh no Cleanse doesn't fix Death and this is a weird exception to the rules". I think we all understand at this point how instantaneous effects work.

It's not an exception to the rules. It's an exception to the effect removal scheme that is otherwise being standardized by the introduction of Cleanse to the Curse effect group. The problem is not with Cleanse, but with Death being a Curse. All Binding effects are removed by Release. All Command effects are removed by Awaken. All current Curse effects are removed by Cleanse. Yay! Except now we're going to add Death to the Curse effect group, which works nothing like the other Curses and doesn't actually cause an ongoing effect, so the removal scheme that was so clean and clear before gets slightly muddied.

I don't actually think this is a problem, personally, but this whole thread has been an impressive exercise in miscommunication. I don't think anyone will be confused when they get hit by a Death spell, and I think some text along the lines of, "Note that Death is an instantaneous effect and will not be reversed by Cleanse," in the Cleanse description will be more than enough to cut off any potential confusion for new players.

Personally, I'd rather keep the Gift effect group, keep Cleanse as a Curse (but find a better incant for it), and have Corrupt as a non-reversible Necromancy effect. It would be the Necromantic capstone ability which Healing simply has no match for.
 
Draven said:
Death's effect is self-deleting.

It does not persist, because the effect of death is to put you into the state of Dead.
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My whole point of this is that it will cause confusion with the New players by saying that Cleans removes all curse effects and then makes note to say , "does not cure a death spell".

Draven said:
It also deletes all other persistent effects that do not specifically persist through the state of Dead (Enslavement/Amnesia).
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I hope I'm misunderstanding you here, are you saying that it will delete Enslavement/Amnesia? I know that death, no matter how it is applied does NOT remove Enslavement and Amnesia.


Draven said:
Can we move on?
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No because this is a discussion. You can if you want to though (with all due respect, not meant to be harsh or sarcastic).
 
....No, I was giving an example of the effects that specifically persist through Death. That seemed a great deal easier than providing a list that do.

I assume that the notation is to prevent players from attempting a Cleanse on someone who gets hit with a Death Curse. It doesn't need to explain the mechanical reason why (the victim is in a state of Dead, and needs a Life spell), it's simply saying, "Cleanse cannot counter a Death spell."

A notation that explains why would only further complicate the description. Not including a notation would probably result in someone trying to Cleanse a Death Curse, and either finding out that it doesn't work, or the recipient thinking that it, in fact, does work.

Better to just have a small notation that says, "Sorry, doesn't work on Death Curse."

Supa-simple.
 
I've said this before, but I think it got missed in the chaff.

For everyone claiming that Release removes all Binding effects, let me ask you a question: Can Release remove a previously cast Release spell?

-MS
 
Draven said:
....No, I was giving an example of the effects that specifically persist through Death. That seemed a great deal easier than providing a list that do.

I assume that the notation is to prevent players from attempting a Cleanse on someone who gets hit with a Death Curse. It doesn't need to explain the mechanical reason why (the victim is in a state of Dead, and needs a Life spell), it's simply saying, "Cleanse cannot counter a Death spell."

A notation that explains why would only further complicate the description. Not including a notation would probably result in someone trying to Cleanse a Death Curse, and either finding out that it doesn't work, or the recipient thinking that it, in fact, does work.

Better to just have a small notation that says, "Sorry, doesn't work on Death Curse."

Supa-simple.
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Ok thanks for the clarify on the Amnesia.

I would argue that it would be Supa-simple to leave gift as life and death *shrugs*
 
mikestrauss said:
I've said this before, but I think it got missed in the chaff.

For everyone claiming that Release removes all Binding effects, let me ask you a question: Can Release remove a previously cast Release spell?

-MS
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New Claim. Release removes all NEGATIVE binding effects.....does that help Mike?
 
mikestrauss said:
For everyone claiming that Release removes all Binding effects, let me ask you a question: Can Release remove a previously cast Release spell?
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Is that a helpful distinction though? Here, I'll restate my point:

Release fixes all Binding effects other than Release itself. Awaken fixes all Command effects other than Awaken itself. Cleanse fixes all Curse effects other than Cleanse itself but also Death because Death works differently. Again, this is fine with the rules, but is slightly inconsistent.
 
I suspect it's less inconsistent than many games with escalating spell systems, tbh.
 
KyleSchmelz said:
Is that a helpful distinction though? Here, I'll restate my point:

Release fixes all Binding effects other than Release itself. Awaken fixes all Command effects other than Awaken itself. Cleanse fixes all Curse effects other than Cleanse itself but also Death because Death works differently. Again, this is fine with the rules, but is slightly inconsistent.
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It is only inconsistent if you have trouble understanding how Instant effects work. Purify removes all harmful status effects on a target, but it doesn't cure body damaged by an Cause Wounds spell. The reason is because the Cause Wounds spell is an Instant effect. It applies a harmful status (damage), but because it is Instant, it isn't removed by Purify. People have understood this without difficulty for years. More telling, maybe, Dispel removes ALL effects on a target, but it won't remove death if someone is hit by a Death spell. Again, this is because Death is an Instant spell and thus can't be removed. And, again, players haven't had trouble with this in my experience.

Instant is well defined and understood by the player community.

However, returning to the original point, I disagree with your assessment of inconsistent, because I would phrase the way these spells work differently. My phrasing would be "Release fixes all Binding spells with a duration longer than Instant." And when defining Cleanse it would be "Cleanse fixes all Curse spells with a duration longer than Instant." Note that now there is absolutely no inconsistency. The wording is identical for both spells.

-MS
 
I quite like the Life/Death/Corrupt changes. Having a Necro boost, Life moved into healing, and Death not being an opposite/Necro version of Life all are good things in my opinion.

However there is a better way to point out that Cleanse doesn't cure death, and that is a reminder that Cleanse, like most spells, does not affect dead bodies.
 
Alavatar said:
Note: Release does not remove Repel.

I just felt like throwing a rock in the pond. ;)
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Would it now? Other wise nothing gets rid of "With Mystic Force I Repel You" Minus the "cure alls"
 
Gilwing said:
Would it now? Other wise nothing gets rid of "With Mystic Force I Repel You" Minus the "cure alls"
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I don't understand the question. There have been no changes to Release identified in the 2.0 ruleset, so Release still won't remove Repel. Only Purify or Dispel would, I believe. (Or Death then Life, :D)

Edit to add: Or the noted Bind. :)
 
Ok, so there is one offensive bindo spell that isn't removed by Release and one offensive Curse not removed by Cleanse, so to resolve any inconsistency in that pattern obviously the thing to do is to create a new Command spell that isn't removed by Awaken. That way there's one in each effect group. :p

[/joke]

If it were up to me, I'd keep Life/Death as Gift, move Cleanse/Release/Awaken to P/E as Dan Beshers suggested, and have Corrupt as non-reversible but add a non-reversible touchcast-only 9th level Earth to balance it out, like Heal as a Purify+ Cure Mortal Wounds or something like that.

Anyway, if Curse-flavored Death is intended by the owners to affect Undead in 2.0, I assume it is not a Spirit-targeting effect. Questions about that:
--Does a spirit bottle (not carried on you) leave you vulnerable to Death but immune to Life? Or does Life now affect a bottled person because it's now Healing?
--Would it be that Undead take Death as Death, but also Life as Death, and Corrupt does nothing?
--Does a living person affected by Corrupt get affected by these spells the same as #2?

I'd like to know how effects like this interact before I continue to form opinions about it. :)
 
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Gilwing said:
Amnesia...do I need to say more?
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It would probably be best to say more in this case, given the nature of what is being discussed. Amnesia is not a Curse, nor is it a Gift under the current rules, nor is it a removal spell like Cleanse. So it doesn't easily follow how Amnesia works into these items interacting, which it seems is the primary purpose of this discussion / clarification.

If you're saying that Amnesia is an instant duration Effect that can still be (situationally) removed later, then yes, that is correct. Amnesia, however, is specifically designed to operate that way and explicitly states that it leaves a lingering Effect to be removed. Death does not state that it leaves any lingering Effects. The reference to Life in the Death Effect is simply to state that it prevents Resurrection, not that it removes any (presumed) Death Effect.

Hopefully that helps clarify things a bit further!
 
kalindra said:
If it were up to me, I'd keep Life/Death as Gift, move Cleanse/Release/Awaken to P/E as Dan Beavers suggested, and have Corrupt as non-reversible but add a non-reversible touchcast-only 9th level Earth to balance it out, like Heal as a Purify+ Cure Mortal Wounds or something like that.
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While I'm on board with the idea of moving Removal effects to P/E, I think the rest of this idea would actually cause more complication, instead of the goal of simplification.

kalindra said:
Anyway, if Curse-flavored Death is intended by the owners to affect Undead in 2.0, I assume it is not a Spirit-targeting effect. Questions about that:
--Does a spirit bottle (not carried on you) leave you vulnerable to Death but immune to Life? Or does Life now affect a bottled person because it's now Healing?
--Would it be that Undead take Death as Death, but also Life as Death, and Corrupt does nothing?
--Does a living person affected by Corrupt get affected by these spells the same as #2?

I'd like to know how effects like this interact before I continue to form opinions about it. :)
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I expect (speculation only) that the Spirit Bottle scroll wording will specify Life and Death, instead of Gift, for 2.0. The immunities are really the only reason anyone gets Bottled, and the side effects are the only reasons anyone doesn't. However, because CSS is chock-full of terrible mechanics, I'd actually support deleting it outright for 2.0, and allowing Bottled players to be converted to Regens.
 
The problem with moving Release / Awaken / Cleanse to P/E is that you run into the immunities problem with monsters.

Per the current playtest, if a creature can be affected by a negative effect, the creature can also be affected by the cure for that negative effect, because they are all in the same school. By moving removal spells to P/E, you could end up with a situation where a creature can be affected by the negative effect, but not the removal effect (due to immunity to P/E). I can't name any creatures currently with immunity to P/E, but that doesn't prevent the possibility.

The idea of the removal spell being in the same school as the negative spells is elegant and practical and the only good objection I've seen is that the spell chant is really awkward for Cleanse. I trust that brilliant minds can adjust the spell chant to make it little less awkward.

-MS
 
In my opinion, the biggest sticking point for a lot of people seems to be that there is an inherent sense that Death should be the opposite of Life. The second biggest sticking point seems to be that lots of people are assuming that Death will continue to work exactly like it used to (despite the fact that the Playtest material specifically says that it now affects more creatures and that someone involved in making the rules has already stated that Death is intended to affect Undead in the future).

I actually agree that Death / Life being opposite is more intuitive. So, why not go with that? Why not name the necromancy spell that kills you and raises you as a greater undead Death? Then name the spell that is a curse and just kills you Corrupt. Or better, yet, maybe Doom (I curse you with Doom has a nice ring to it). No mechanical changes to the suggested rules, just a name swap that seems to fit the aesthetic desires of a lot of the people in this discussion (and I suspect a large portion of the player base).

-MS
 
mikestrauss said:
By moving removal spells to P/E, you could end up with a situation where a creature can be affected by the negative effect, but not the removal effect (due to immunity to P/E).
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While I agree that this is technically true, the possibility of this happening seems so vanishingly small to me that I can't honestly see it causing a real issue unless the plot team decided to make it an issue intentionally. I just can't think of a monster where I would need it to be immune to P/E for thematic reasons but that it would ruin a mod if it couldn't remove a status effect--partly because an NPC stuck with any status effect is usually dead anyway, even if it could theoretically take a fixer.
If a PC got stuck with alternate effect to P/E through a ritual backlash, that would suck pretty hard, but they'd still be fixable by Purify.

mikestrauss said:
Why not name the necromancy spell that kills you and raises you as a greater undead Death? Then name the spell that is a curse and just kills you Corrupt
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This... I think I'd be ok with. I'm not sure I like it better than keeping the Gift effect group, but I definitely like the idea at first glance.
 
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