100 words would be excruciatingly tough. Chimps and apes that "learn language" never learn how to use language with the creativity that most of us want our characters to have so I don't think their "language" (and it's not really learning langauge) is a good model.
What does it mean to speak poorly?
- Thread starter James Trotta
- Start date
James Trotta said:
Washoe did pretty darn good with 68 signs - and I am not proposing a hard stop at 100 words ... but with 100 words you can make yourself very well understood with a very small vocabulary ... with some imagination and creativity. Lose all synonyms and antonyms. For example, use FAST as a root - NOT FAST for slow - MUCH FAST for faster - BIG BIG FAST for very very very fast. If I had a barbarian character, and that character uttered: WE GO FAST NOW. MAKE BIG BAD NOT LIVE. KILL! KILL! KILL! you would understand pretty darn clearly what was being said. With practice, restricting your vocabulary does not mean you restrict the range of the things that you can express. There can be some pretty entertaining role play if you purposefully and creatively restrict the vocabulary, use lots of body language and acting out while talking, and allow for occassional misundertanding with role playing the frustration of not being able to always be clearly understood.
I have always enjoyed most the Barbarians who act and do more than they talk.
¿is anyone else bothered by the fact that we're comparing a race described as not stupid but "merely uncultured and somewhat primitive" with chimpanzees (ARB pg.40)?
after a fashion, i'm somewhat miffed by efforts to "idiotize" the Barbarian race. ¿why must a person without civilization speak as though they have brain damage? i'm reminded of how Native Americans were represented in early "Lone Ranger" novels or how 19th century English writers represented Africans. i'm fine with a person having difficulty with the language, but ¿to the point where they can't EVER learn better usage or use basic parts of speech like a personal pronoun?
i'd much prefer for Barbarians to sound like Japanese haiku: terse, direct, unadorned, and mostly silent, or maybe like The Man With No Name from "Yojimbo". this whole "Me ¡SMASH! wif bigbig stabby-stab" crap just raises my hackles
after a fashion, i'm somewhat miffed by efforts to "idiotize" the Barbarian race. ¿why must a person without civilization speak as though they have brain damage? i'm reminded of how Native Americans were represented in early "Lone Ranger" novels or how 19th century English writers represented Africans. i'm fine with a person having difficulty with the language, but ¿to the point where they can't EVER learn better usage or use basic parts of speech like a personal pronoun?
i'd much prefer for Barbarians to sound like Japanese haiku: terse, direct, unadorned, and mostly silent, or maybe like The Man With No Name from "Yojimbo". this whole "Me ¡SMASH! wif bigbig stabby-stab" crap just raises my hackles
jpariury
Duke
Actually, looking through the racial packet, it makes no suggestion that "speak simply" should necessarily mean low-syllabic speech, nor even a particular stupidity in reasoning. Instead, it suggests "Barbarians have little patience for complicated social niceties and protocols. They tend to speak plainly and directly." That's probably what "speak simply" is intended to denote.
Mobius said:
Part of why I am more and more of the position that Barbarian and Gypsy need to not be separate races, but simply humans with a culture packet. Sure, it might mean them losing their racials, but at the same time it also means not being outright insulting to any culture that historically isn't Northern Europe.
Washoe did pretty good for a chimp. I study SLA (Second language Acquisition) so I'm not real familiar with Washoe but I know one of the big accomplishments was recognition of a toothbrush. Pretty good for a chimp but I think most of us want to play a character that can do far more than Washoe. Also the examples are getting ungrammatical (big big fast). And if the barbarian uses "not fast" instead of "slow", why? Would they not comprehend slow? And if they understand it, why not produce "slow"?
Ondreij said:
Well... I'm not sure exactly why we're bringing prejudice into the equation. But here is the quote we're currently discussing.
"In order to be identifiable as a barbarian, you should talk poorly, dress in furs, and otherwise look primitive."
That could describe anything from a Neanderthal to a Viking in my opinion.
"In order to be identifiable as a barbarian, you should talk poorly, dress in furs, and otherwise look primitive."
That could describe anything from a Neanderthal to a Viking in my opinion.
jpariury
Duke
Ah, my bad, I thought it said something akin to "use simple speech". I suspect the rulebook is off, then, maybe (or possibly the racial packet). For instance, the packet cites a barbarian uttering the following: "Since when is congratulating a man on his wedding day a crime?" The verbiage and syntax aren't poor at all, and nothing in the story indicates a funny lisp or a stutter or anything else that might reflect poor speech.Madhawk said:
Who ever says that Chimps are stupid has never spent time observing the Premak apes linguistic ability; they have a rich culture, a rich emotional life, and can learn to do complex things. They enjoy many of the same things we do, like watching television and playing video games. The fact that a tiny bit more than 99% of the human genome and the chimp genome are the same says a lot. Chimp moms are AWESOME moms, and chimp aunts are awesome to their sisters children.
I was using that as an anology for what is "to speak simply" - to provide guidlines that might help in the performance of Barbarianism. And the performance that would result would be similar to the way the best of the Barbarians I have met in game have spoken, acted.
I am making some suggestions, but I would no more tell anyone how to play their Barbarian then I would appreciate someone how to play my MWE.
I was using that as an anology for what is "to speak simply" - to provide guidlines that might help in the performance of Barbarianism. And the performance that would result would be similar to the way the best of the Barbarians I have met in game have spoken, acted.
I am making some suggestions, but I would no more tell anyone how to play their Barbarian then I would appreciate someone how to play my MWE.
Sounds like the race packet is in direct opposition to the book because that is not speaking poorly by any definition I can think of.
I don't have the race packet but unless the context is really weird, the quote in question shows strong awareness of discourse and pragmatics (including tact).
Inaryn said:
jpariury
Duke
It's a fun little story, but essentially deals with the barbar doing something he thinks is nice but the "civilized peeps" think is gross. I don't know about it being tactful, but the assorted things that the barbar says more or less use fairly normal sentence structure and language (none of this "me no likey" nonsense).
I suspect either the rulebook language or the racial packet are inherited text. I think the race packet has better context for what being a barbarian in, within the Alliance context, but that's rather the point of having one, right? I think "talk poorly" might need to go the way of the dodo, and be replaced with "speak simply and directly, with no consideration of local customs or etiquette".
I suspect either the rulebook language or the racial packet are inherited text. I think the race packet has better context for what being a barbarian in, within the Alliance context, but that's rather the point of having one, right? I think "talk poorly" might need to go the way of the dodo, and be replaced with "speak simply and directly, with no consideration of local customs or etiquette".
Madhawk said:
Yeah, no. I think you have a (fairly common) misconception as to how the Norse dressed and acted. They mostly wore Wool, and were fully conversant in their native language. Wordplay and clever speaking was highly praised among them. Kennings, songs and poetry were richly rewarded at times. Furthermore, their culture was at least at the same level as the rest of Dark ages Europe. Hell, they were practically the only people in dark ages Europe (that we know of) that regularly Bathed, and valued personal hygiene.
Looked at historically, the Barbarian as played did not exist, except for through the lens of an outside culture. Sure, the ROMANS thought the Gauls were uncivilized, but looked at from a modern view, no more so than the Romans themselves were. And I'll bet the Gauls had some very unflattering things to say about the Roman way of life as well.
So, in effect, there is no historical model you can use for them, as there never has been a Homo Sapiens Sapient race that dressed exclusively in fur, has a primitive culture, and lacked full use of language. You might make an argument for Barbar as Cro Magnon, but that doesn't work either, as Cro magnon in fact, lacked any metalworking at all. So, no greatswords, or steel armor.
Sadly, much like the gypsy race, the barbar is frequently played as a collection of unfortunate and largely incorrect cultural stereotypes. However, if treated with respect, an existent "primitive" culture can serve as a good potential background for a Barbar or Gypsy, if properly researched.
Sorry, this may have become more longwinded and pedantic than I normally am.
Fairly well, actually, seeing as how Saxon English was not sufficiently differentiated from German to make much of a difference in Dark Ages Europe. Basically they all spoke minor variations of the unabridged version of Beowulf. When the Vikings landed their longships in Britain, they had no problems understanding the language of their cousins the Anglo-Saxons.
Kind of like how people in Boston can understand people in Texas, and vice versa. They both speak a dialect of English.
Kind of like how people in Boston can understand people in Texas, and vice versa. They both speak a dialect of English.
OrcFighterFTW
Spellsword
Wow. This is getting taken waaaaay too seriously.
We play a game that has magic and alchemy and undead and all sorts of things that don't really exist or ever existed.
This is not a historical re-enactment game, this is high fantasy. We make up things that never really happened so that we can be all we can't be.
I think the ambiguity in the rules is very good thing when it comes to role-playing. It allows for creativity and individuality. I agree with earlier posts that say when anything becomes complete cookie-cutter with no room to change, it gets dull and boring very quickly. This is what makes Alliance so much fun!
We play a game that has magic and alchemy and undead and all sorts of things that don't really exist or ever existed.
This is not a historical re-enactment game, this is high fantasy. We make up things that never really happened so that we can be all we can't be.
I think the ambiguity in the rules is very good thing when it comes to role-playing. It allows for creativity and individuality. I agree with earlier posts that say when anything becomes complete cookie-cutter with no room to change, it gets dull and boring very quickly. This is what makes Alliance so much fun!
i really agree with what you say about historical models and appreciate how succinctly you stated such. from what i understand, the original meaning of "barbarian" was merely Non-Roman, and is akin to how Americans use the word "foreigner". the more "Barbarians" (the Alliance Race) i see and the more i read about how they're played in the game (versus how the word "barbarian" was fist used by the Romans) the more i think the race should be kept totally distinct from Humans. that is, in order to align properly both with how the race is played and how genetics "work" in Alliance, it would make more sense to think of Barbarians as Half-Giants (just like Half Orcs and Half Ogres). this would account for their difficulty with speech, their anger issues, their extra body and Racial Resists, their superstitions, etc. it's not that Barbarians are barbaric Humans, they're sophisticated Hill Giants - seems to make a lot more sense and it doesn't tread on so many cultural toesConnal said:
A couple of notes,
1, I'm not really "taking this seriously" in an "alliance is Srs Bzns" way. Though i will admit, my previous posts may have had a bit of "Stuffy history book nerd" flavor to it. The Norse have been pretty seriously demonized over the centuries, and I like to clear some of those misconceptions up when I can. If I tell you, and you tell someone else, Ect. maybe we can clear up Horns and Wings on helmets.
2, While the barbarian RACE in Alliance is written as a distinct culture set, separate in it's entirety from any culture and race on earth....It's not always so true in practice. A certain degree of cultural appropriation is always going to happen based on commonly accepted depictions of "barbarians".
The term barbarian is Greek, and refers to people who make sheep noises rather than speaking Greek like people are "supposed to", and here, we have a definite link to real history.
To get to the "core", I feel, of the Barbarian fantasy Race, you have to go back to Conan, and the Hyperborean age. Which was a thin overlay on Bronze age Europe, with some fantasy elements thrown in. but this is Turning into another long boring and stuffy sounding screed, so I'm going to let it go before the snores start.
1, I'm not really "taking this seriously" in an "alliance is Srs Bzns" way. Though i will admit, my previous posts may have had a bit of "Stuffy history book nerd" flavor to it. The Norse have been pretty seriously demonized over the centuries, and I like to clear some of those misconceptions up when I can. If I tell you, and you tell someone else, Ect. maybe we can clear up Horns and Wings on helmets.
2, While the barbarian RACE in Alliance is written as a distinct culture set, separate in it's entirety from any culture and race on earth....It's not always so true in practice. A certain degree of cultural appropriation is always going to happen based on commonly accepted depictions of "barbarians".
The term barbarian is Greek, and refers to people who make sheep noises rather than speaking Greek like people are "supposed to", and here, we have a definite link to real history.
To get to the "core", I feel, of the Barbarian fantasy Race, you have to go back to Conan, and the Hyperborean age. Which was a thin overlay on Bronze age Europe, with some fantasy elements thrown in. but this is Turning into another long boring and stuffy sounding screed, so I'm going to let it go before the snores start.