Wither

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Does having a Witherd defense prevent me from using a spellstrike purify from an item on myself?

There is a specific mention of not being able to touch cast on yourself or otherwise target yourself with a packet attack, and it would seem that being offensively withered would prevent you from doing so, though I think the phrasing “offensive weapon calls” leaves a little to be desired, but it seems a little unclear.
 
I would say the intent is likely that you can't Spell Strike at all, as they're very likely to be considered an "offensive weapon call" regardless of effect, but that should probably be clarified.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
I would agree that one most likely cannot spellstrike while offensively withered, as that expressly covers offensive weapon strikes and the argument could be made that a spellstrike purify could be used offensively.

My question is primarily focused on being able to used a spellstrike purify while defensively withered, as the spell description states that you may make offensive weapon strikes, but may not intentionally target yourself with a packet attack.

While offensively Withered, the target may not make any offensive weapon calls or throw packets, but may block, use defensive calls, and touchcast spells. While defensively Withered, the target will take damage when blocking attacks with a weapon or shield as if they did not have the appropriate weapon skill(s) to wield them, may not touchcast or intentionally target themselves with a packet attack, and may not use Smart Defenses, but may still make offensive strikes and throw packets at other targets.
Probably should have just included the above in the initial post.
 
I misread the initial post, sorry. In light of that, I would say Spell Strike Purifying yourself while Defensively Withered is totally fine? It's not technically a touchcast or a packet attack despite using the packet rules, and it would be weird for a Spell Strike to be disallowed just because you're targeting yourself if the intent is that Spell Strikes are Offensive Weapon Calls; if that were the case, you couldn't Spell Strike yourself while Defensively Withered but could while Offensively Withered, and that strikes me as odd.
 

Stana

Scholar
Seattle Staff
Marshal
What about casting an offensive reflect spell against your foe followed by an offensive purify?
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
I misread the initial post, sorry. In light of that, I would say Spell Strike Purifying yourself while Defensively Withered is totally fine? It's not technically a touchcast or a packet attack despite using the packet rules, and it would be weird for a Spell Strike to be disallowed just because you're targeting yourself if the intent is that Spell Strikes are Offensive Weapon Calls; if that were the case, you couldn't Spell Strike yourself while Defensively Withered but could while Offensively Withered, and that strikes me as odd.
Right.

It strikes me as potentially odd either way, which is why I was asking.

The issue I’m having is that the intent of a withered defense is to prevent you from defending or fixing yourself while in combat, which would seem to imply that a self-administered spellstrike purify would be a no no. With spellstrikes being a weird (and suddenly significantly more common) delivery method, I think there needs to be some reworking to how we think about wordings in our soon to be post-2.0 world.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
What about casting an offensive reflect spell against your foe followed by an offensive purify?
While defensively withered, I would see no problem with that as a fix, but it’s adding an additional “thing” that may or may not be present.

Which, completely unrelated, brings up another thing: does the answer to the initial question change if instead of a spellstrike purify, a weapon strike purify is used?
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Purifying Strike is an offensive action, as is Spellstrike Purify, as is throwing a healing spell packet through the air.

You could do all of these things while defensively withered.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Except that a spellstrike (per the Channel description on page 140) is a spell attack, not a weapon attack and defensive withering prevents you from targeting yourself with packet attacks, which would seem to prevent you from using at least the packet and the spell strike options on yourself.

I’d argue that the intent is clearly behind not being able to target yourself with the purifying strike in this circumstance either.
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Ignore this, I am an idiot.

Here is a photo of @Draven in his natural habitat instead:

 
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Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
So framing the question.
Telossi & Sir Leon are side by side in a line fight. Their spell-afflicted charmed-or-undead friend Shin comes up and hits each with a wither.
Telossi has a purify and a purify strike.

While offensively Withered, the target may not make any offensive weapon calls or throw packets, but may block, use defensive calls, and touchcast spells. While defensively Withered, the target will take damage when blocking attacks with a weapon or shield as if they did not have the appropriate weapon skill(s) to wield them, may not touchcast or intentionally target themselves with a packet attack, and may not use Smart Defenses, but may still make offensive strikes and throw packets at other targets.
Purifying/Draining Strike [Curative Strike] - the character may, once per Logistics period per purchase, swing for “Weapon Strike Drain” or “Weapon Strike Purify”. Remember that since this is not a Carrier Attack (it doesn’t have a number attached) it is able to provide beneficial effects.
If he chooses offensively withered:
Can he use purify on himself? Yes - touchcast spell
Can he use purify strike on himself?
Can he use purify by touch on Sir Leon? Yes - touchcast spell
Can he use purify by packet on Sir Leon? No - no packet throwing
Can he use purify strike on Sir Leon?
Can he use purify by touch on Shin? Yes, but he doesn't have to accept it
Can he use purify by packet on Shin? No - no packet throwing
Can he use purify strike on Shin? No - offensive weapon call

If he chooses defensively withered:
Can he use purify on himself? No - touchcast spell
Can he use purify strike on himself?
Can he use purify by touch on Sir Leon? No - touchcast spell
Can he use purify by packet on Sir Leon? Yes - can throw packets at other targets
Can he use purify strike on Sir Leon?
Can he use purify by touch on Shin? No - touchcast spell
Can he use purify by packet on Shin? Yes - can throw packets at other targets
Can he use purify strike on Shin?

(text in italics are edits based on the wording "but may still make offensive strikes and throw packets at other targets", which doesn't specify offensive packets. As Tieran pointed out below.)

I suppose the question is, does purify strike count as an offensive action? Part of me wants to say since it is being weapon delivered, it is inherently "offensive". So in the example above, while offensively withered it couldn't be used on any of himself, Sir Leon, or hostile-Shin; but that would imply while defensively withered it could be used on himself, Sir Leon, and on hostile-Shin.

Should Shin and Sir Leon have all the same answer above? I think the answer is yes, even though I can't know if Shin is either a living friend (packeted-purify|purify-strike would be helpful!) or a corrupted entity (packeted-purify|purify-strike is an attack!)

I'm also a bit unclear if while defensively withered if a packeted purify is acceptable against friends, enemies, or people you aren't sure of. I think without other ARC clarification, I'd say "offensive" means "ranged packet or weapon delivered" and defensive is "touchcast only". This would imply with a purify & purify strike Telossi would always be able to cure himself of Wither; and with a purify, he could always fix Sir Leon, but would have to either touchcast or ranged cast depending on which he chose -- and I'm not sure that's in the spirit of the Wither effect. But its really hard to otherwise define the edge case when we have the Shin-case.


(Sorry Shin for using you as an example. You've never been anything but the most righteous of earth casters to my knowledge and a loyal battlefield companion.)
 
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Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Except that a spellstrike (per the Channel description on page 140) is a spell attack, not a weapon attack and defensive withering prevents you from targeting yourself with packet attacks, which would seem to prevent you from using at least the packet and the spell strike options on yourself.

I’d argue that the intent is clearly behind not being able to target yourself with the purifying strike in this circumstance either.
Ohhh, I missed the intentionally targeting part, I saw the touchcast part.

Oh damn. Yeah, I’d say that no matter which way you’re Withered, you wouldn’t be able to use Purifying Strike or Spellstrike Purify.

That’s a weird conundrum. If you’re defensively withered and you have a Potion Coated Weapon with a Purify and it doesn’t have a Poison Trigger, you can hit yourself but you can’t actually use the Potion coating despite it would go off on the first hit.

Weird.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
I'm also a bit unclear if while defensively withered if a packeted purify is acceptable against friends, enemies, or people you aren't sure of. I think without other ARC clarification, I'd say "offensive" means "ranged packet or weapon delivered" and defensive is "touchcast only". This would imply with a purify & purify strike Telossi would always be able to cure himself of Wither; and with a purify, he could always fix Sir Leon, but would have to either touchcast or ranged cast depending on which he chose -- and I'm not sure that's in the spirit of the Wither effect. But its really hard to otherwise define the edge case when we have the Shin-case
Defensive wither explicitly allows targeting others with packet attacks at range.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Ohhh, I missed the intentionally targeting part, I saw the touchcast part.

Oh damn. Yeah, I’d say that no matter which way you’re Withered, you wouldn’t be able to use Purifying Strike or Spellstrike Purify.

That’s a weird conundrum. If you’re defensively withered and you have a Potion Coated Weapon with a Purify and it doesn’t have a Poison Trigger, you can hit yourself but you can’t actually use the Potion coating despite it would go off on the first hit.

Weird.
Weird indeed.

With empowered strike you don’t event need to get into the potion coating rit either.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
Defensive wither explicitly allows targeting others with packet attacks at range.
That's a good point. (edited my chart of questions above to reflect this)

And I think that also implies that "purify strike" should be valid too. Awkwardly, I think the skill definition's term "offensive strikes" does not mean "strike" as in the technical term but merely weapon swings.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
I think the use of “offensive strikes” in the second half of the description is just meant to make the paragraph read more friendly and has the same meaning as the phrase “offensive weapon calls” in the first half.

The issue, I think, is determining what makes a call made with a weapon offensive vs defensive.

Parry is clearly a non-offensive weapon call. I don’t think a reasonable argument can be made otherwise.

I’m pretty sure that “5 normal” would always be an offensive weapon call, regardless of who the target is. Same with slays, other weapon Strikes, eviscerate, etc.

They have the clear aim of doing damage to, or otherwise negatively impacting the combat effectiveness of, whoever they are targeting.

Spellstrikes are, probably, the main (only?) outlier. Are they offensive by nature? Is their offensiveness derived from their target? Is it from whether they can negatively impact the target?
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
I mean, you could also argue that weapon swung "5 flame" or "5 healing" is not offensive against something immune. And its the same question as is purify-strike offensive? In all 3 of those cases, yes to some targets and no to others.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
I mean, you could also argue that weapon swung "5 flame" or "5 healing" is not offensive against something immune. And its the same question as is purify-strike offensive? In all 3 of those cases, yes to some targets and no to others.
It's still and offensive strike if meant to harm them. I can throw 3 death spells and if you aren't effected by it, it was still an offensive attack.

I say we just make wither go back to its original meaning
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
I actually really like the new wither.

I think it’s a really interesting mechanic and it makes it a useful yet different effect.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I actually really like the new wither.

I think it’s a really interesting mechanic and it makes it a useful yet different effect.
Eh. I’m not much of a fan. It’s mechanically wonky to me, worse so than Enflame was.
 
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