I’m willing to attribute most of the wonkiness to “new thing” and at least it’s not kinda sorta in two effect groups.
Wither
- Thread starter tieran
- Start date
I’m willing to attribute most of the wonkiness to “new thing” and at least it’s not kinda sorta in two effect groups.
I think the intent and focus here should specifically be on the end of the sentance
It isn't may make offensive strikes in general, and also throw packets at other targets. It reads as may do both at other targets. Which is the intent.
Feldor
Adept
So it depends on what you think the intent is. I've sort of been interpreting the intent as "defensive wither" lets you do things to others but not yourself. So you can heal other people but not yourself. And the intent of "offensive wither" means you can only do things by touch either to yourself or others - so basically only things the target permits.
These two posts above are why I hate Wither.
I get it, but that just means that once it gets clarified it’ll make sense.
Something along the lines of defensive withering means you can only target others with stuff and can’t block, offensive withering means you can’t target others with stuff and can block and use defenses.
If you are taking an action with an intent to grant yourself a fix or a benefit, you can't do it while defensively Withered.
This is something we've literally dealt with for *years* in 1.3 with all sorts of strange monsters. A Carrier cannot give a beneficial effect to the target. That's pretty well set and understood for quite some time. I've seen some weird monsters over the years, healed by all sorts of things, and it's been very clear which attacks can be considered "beneficial" to them (and thus won't give benefits as a Carrier).
Let's say you're a PC. If a monster comes up swinging "10 Purify", and you're Slept, it won't wake you up. Let's say you're a Construct. If a monster comes in swinging "1 Prison", and you're healed by Prison, you won't be healed.
Similarly, under the new Wither, if you're defensively Withered, you can't intentionally fix yourself or grant yourself a benefit. Think of it this way while you're defensively Withered- if what you're trying to do would be considered "beneficial" if swung as a Carrier, you can't do it to yourself.
So you're a PC under a defensive Wither. Imagine: if a monster swung "10 Purify" at you, it would benefit you, so you wouldn't take the Purify. That means you shouldn't swing a Purify at yourself. Similarly, if a monster swung "5 Spell Shield" at you (weird call, but I've seen it!) it would benefit you; well, guess what, under a defensive Purify you can't touchcast a Spell Shield on yourself (or use an Empowered Strike to Spell Strike it on yourself). On the other hand, you COULD use that Purifying Strike to swing a Wither at yourself and switch yourself to being "offensively" withered, and then you could touchcast a Purify on yourself (or Weapon Strike Purify yourself now!).
A lot of it comes down to intent and good sportsmanship, just like many of our Alliance game rules. We've tried to nail it down reasonably well, but there will always be corner cases that players will need to judge for themselves, especially once you start throwing strange monster designs in there. If you Wither a strange Mend Armor beastie and it chooses "defensively Withered", it probably shouldn't be able to activate Elemental Mend Armor abilities on itself, and the player needs to make that judgement call on the fly - and that's OK.
-Bryan Gregory
ARC
This is something we've literally dealt with for *years* in 1.3 with all sorts of strange monsters. A Carrier cannot give a beneficial effect to the target. That's pretty well set and understood for quite some time. I've seen some weird monsters over the years, healed by all sorts of things, and it's been very clear which attacks can be considered "beneficial" to them (and thus won't give benefits as a Carrier).
Let's say you're a PC. If a monster comes up swinging "10 Purify", and you're Slept, it won't wake you up. Let's say you're a Construct. If a monster comes in swinging "1 Prison", and you're healed by Prison, you won't be healed.
Similarly, under the new Wither, if you're defensively Withered, you can't intentionally fix yourself or grant yourself a benefit. Think of it this way while you're defensively Withered- if what you're trying to do would be considered "beneficial" if swung as a Carrier, you can't do it to yourself.
So you're a PC under a defensive Wither. Imagine: if a monster swung "10 Purify" at you, it would benefit you, so you wouldn't take the Purify. That means you shouldn't swing a Purify at yourself. Similarly, if a monster swung "5 Spell Shield" at you (weird call, but I've seen it!) it would benefit you; well, guess what, under a defensive Purify you can't touchcast a Spell Shield on yourself (or use an Empowered Strike to Spell Strike it on yourself). On the other hand, you COULD use that Purifying Strike to swing a Wither at yourself and switch yourself to being "offensively" withered, and then you could touchcast a Purify on yourself (or Weapon Strike Purify yourself now!).
A lot of it comes down to intent and good sportsmanship, just like many of our Alliance game rules. We've tried to nail it down reasonably well, but there will always be corner cases that players will need to judge for themselves, especially once you start throwing strange monster designs in there. If you Wither a strange Mend Armor beastie and it chooses "defensively Withered", it probably shouldn't be able to activate Elemental Mend Armor abilities on itself, and the player needs to make that judgement call on the fly - and that's OK.
-Bryan Gregory
ARC
....but why?
Feldor
Adept
I think I understand, I'm just trying to make sure.
So Purify Strike is not a carrier, but I think you are using that as a straw man not a justification. In the case where I don't know if Shin is undead or just charmed, I just know he's casting necromancy, is it reasonable to use "Purify Strike" while Defensively Withered? It is a potent attack against undead.
And I suspect your answer is "If I think it'll help him, I can't do it, but if I think he is undead its fine (even if I end up being wrong). And in no case can I use it on myself."
So Purify Strike is not a carrier, but I think you are using that as a straw man not a justification. In the case where I don't know if Shin is undead or just charmed, I just know he's casting necromancy, is it reasonable to use "Purify Strike" while Defensively Withered? It is a potent attack against undead.
And I suspect your answer is "If I think it'll help him, I can't do it, but if I think he is undead its fine (even if I end up being wrong). And in no case can I use it on myself."
Alkalin3
Knight
You should ask them if they "Appear to be corrupted?" before attempting if you're worried that could be a possibility. If they were created they should be shambling and stuff per the spell description.
This is an interesting new effect to wrap my mind around. It's turning two game mechanics, i.e. "can't benefit from offensive attacks" and "affected by attacks when blocking without skill", into an active spell. I think part of the issue is that "legacy" Wither was a physical effect, but "new" Wither is an effect based on intent.
A simple help in reforming this spell may be changing the name. "Wither" carries a lot of physical and institutional baggage, not to mention the visual issue of how an 'actively Withered' person looks. This new effect doesn't seem to carry any manifest symptoms, like Web, but is more akin to Charm in how it affects the character - a mental blockage or disability. ¿Why not change the name to something more visually ephemeral but indicative of the shifted focus? Inhibit? Hinder? Sabotage? Debilitate? Might go a long way in allaying some of the issues if people thought about this as an entirely new idea, as opposed to a new twist on an old theme.
A simple help in reforming this spell may be changing the name. "Wither" carries a lot of physical and institutional baggage, not to mention the visual issue of how an 'actively Withered' person looks. This new effect doesn't seem to carry any manifest symptoms, like Web, but is more akin to Charm in how it affects the character - a mental blockage or disability. ¿Why not change the name to something more visually ephemeral but indicative of the shifted focus? Inhibit? Hinder? Sabotage? Debilitate? Might go a long way in allaying some of the issues if people thought about this as an entirely new idea, as opposed to a new twist on an old theme.