Wylderkin racial choices

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Dan Nickname Beshers

Baron
Marshal
So, since it came up in another thread but was off topic there, I thought I'd through it up over here: what racials make sense for which kinds of kin?

On the topic of the "perfect pair", Racial Dodge and Resist Magic, I know of one character at least that has them: a snake-kin. The dodge I think is fairly obvious, the Resist Magic is justified by the frequent appearance of snakes and serpents as important parts or even practitioners in various real-world mythologies' magical practices, ranging from the Arabian peninsula to ancient Greece to modern day Voodoo rites.
 
I have to agree with evan in the other thread. It should not be open to interpenetration by each plot. It should be preset in the book, or just a free choice without needed to justify it. Otherwise it makes for issues when transferring possibly, issues with favoritism perhaps, and other such issues. Such as someone with a good mind for debate might get something passed that a newer player could not. Which is hardly fair, imo.
 
The only problem with that is the HUGE list of kin. Any animal or reptile (even bird). Who would want to tackle trying to have a set list of kin and the racials they can take? Then there would also be the endless debate of why something or another should be or not be on the list.
 
Almost anything can be easily justified except Resist Magic, which is this the toughest thing to do simply because Wylderkyn are based on real-world animals and magic as we have it in this game is not real. That said, I'd give it to highly resistant creatures such as cockroaches, turtles, armadillos... anything with a shell or reason to shrug off other things in their natural environment because it is real as part of the environment of Fortannis.

Resist Magic in terms of Wylderkin is like a greater form of Resist Element and would be the opposite of Racial Dodge, so I don't know if I'd support the Resist Magic/Racial Dodge combo. The natural resistance would be more toward the "yes, you hit me but I'm so tough I shrug it off" type rather than the quick dodgy type of animal. I can't see much cross over, such as a turtlekyn with Racial Dodge. To underscore my point with an rpg gaming term, I'd only give Resist Magic to "tanky" creatures.
 
Alavatar said:
Given that Kyn are not supposed to be based on mythological creatures is it appropriate for mythology or superstition to justify Kyn racials?
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I would say so. I think the prohibition on mythological creatures is really meant to prevent using the kind of made up creatures that in game get classified as Magical Creatures. I don't believe it extends to ignoring the mythological associations of suitable, actual animals. After all, there is magic in Fortannis.

For what it's worth, I don't think any of the racial skills are so imbalanced that denying any of them to a wylderkin is worth the trouble. You can stretch justifications pretty far; for example a turtle-kin takes dodge to represent withdrawing into its shell. Dubious, perhaps, but no more dubious than telling a six-foot-three man he can't use a staff because he's a "dwarf", even the per the rules he is six-foot-three in game as well.
 
I was going to argue against using mythology or superstition as justification for racials (specifically Resist Magic which is my biggest pet peeve on the subject) by using an argument that I haven't seen a chapter give a cougar, deer, koala, bear, wolf or other normal animal card Resist Magic. But, a thought occurred to me: Can players base their animal of choice for their Kyn off a Dire version? Can that be valid justification for Resist Magic (because I have seen multiple dire animals resist magic)? Or is that too far into "mythological creature" land?

My other suggestion would be to make Resist Magic not available to Kyn, then let them choose freely of the others. But I doubt people would concur with that. ;)
 
I look at it in a slightly different way than the justification angle. In general, though certainly debatable, the more odious the racial representation requirements, combined with how many racial restrictions there are, the more esoteric and unusual the racial abilities are. This culminates in full skin coverage paint _and_ hair recoloring in dark elves who get Resist Magic, Resist Command, 1/2 price Archery, can't use 2-handed and are down a couple body points. The makeup for wilderkyn is pretty intense, and generally more intricate than any of the other makeup/prosthetic races. With that, I'm not against allowing them a free range of choices.

That said, if you submit a backstory where you're the Duke of Bourbon, and have slain dragons since you were 2 years old, plot has every right to say "Nope" to your character backstory and work with you to create something that works with the universe that is built. If you really really really want Resist Magic and Dodge, and submit a backstory where you're a Slothkyn, plot should say "Nope" and then work with you to find a Kyn that fits that mechanic you want. As much as story should be a focus, there are some people for whom mechanical stick jock with a side of story is what makes their weekend. If the mechanics are that important to the player, where they say they want those two racials and are willing to do the work of repping it, why shouldn't we work with that player just like it's something they really want in their backstory?

If we give Kin a free range of choices, I'd actually add one somewhat odd restriction, they can't have the same "set" of racial abilities as another race. Can't take Racial Prof and Resist Necro, or Racial Dodge and Resist Poison for examples. I want every race to feel unique, and part of that is having a unique racial set. Kyn then become the catch-all category for those interesting combinations of racial abilities that aren't represented elsewhere.
 
Another consideration: can character backstory influence racials?

My Rhinokin has Resist Element because of his thick hide, but has Resist Poison due to events that occurred during his childhood.
 
Considering there's a kyn out there with Gypsy Curse, I really can't see an argument against RM for any Kyn.
 
Perhaps I am the only one that is bothered by Kyn with Resist Magic, then. Such is life. :)

P.S. Saying something is justified because it was allowed in the past is known as a the Historian's Fallacy. It is an argument based on past precedence rather than rationale and logic.
 
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Don't worry, Seth, I'm there with you; I'm not a fan of wylderkin with Resist Magic, either.

To be honest, I'm not a fan of Wylderkin getting any two racials they want in a general sense. I think that giving them ONE choice racial is plenty, with two being unnecessary. I think letting a player determine what animal they want to play (in essence allowing them to create their own PC race) is enough of a reward in itself and they don't need the extra boon of getting better racials than other races.

The argument of "Wylderkin have the most intensive makeup so they should get good racials" doesn't resonate with me, especially since Stone Elves get the same racials as MWEs and Biatas, with the last two having some of the easiest racial prosthetic requirements in contrast to the Stone Elves' full white makeup, black mouth, and ear tips (and if you try to tell me that the Mental Abilities are their reward, I first raise my eyebrows at you in surprise, then remind you that Biata get Mental Abilities without having to wear full makeup, ear tips, and lose their emotion).
 
Biata give up an entire school of magic in -every kind of interaction.-

No Monster Slayers. No Wards. No protectives from C-Casters. Need Rits cast in a chapter with no good formalist E casters? That sucks for you. Hope Plot is generous with their NPCs.

They pay a pretty hefty price for what they get.
 
Yeah, and a Wylderkin can get Resist Command and Break Command, all the while using Celestial stuff (and emotions) to his/her heart's content.
 
Biata do have their own pretty significant role play and game play restrictions.

Something else to remember for this topic is that -kin aren't talking animals like from Narnia. They are a singular humanoid race that exhibits some animal features and characteristics. See the fish-kin example, where they clearly breathe air with lungs and do not have functional gills, or the bird-kin that doesn't have avian "hollow" bones. Sure, a sloth-kin probably shouldn't take dodge, but is that a problem anyone is having?

I can certainly see where the aversion to Resist Magic in particular comes from since it's a trait that no real world animal exhibits, but isn't that also true about Resist Command, or Resist Necromancy? The stigma on Resist Magic is, I think, a bit more about the percieved uber-ness of that skill than it is about the thematic concerns. Nobody's really raising a stink about owl-kin taking Resist Command because it doesn't feel like a powergaming move.
 
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
I would say so. I think the prohibition on mythological creatures is really meant to prevent using the kind of made up creatures that in game get classified as Magical Creatures. I don't believe it extends to ignoring the mythological associations of suitable, actual animals. After all, there is magic in Fortannis.

For what it's worth, I don't think any of the racial skills are so imbalanced that denying any of them to a wylderkin is worth the trouble. You can stretch justifications pretty far; for example a turtle-kin takes dodge to represent withdrawing into its shell. Dubious, perhaps, but no more dubious than telling a six-foot-three man he can't use a staff because he's a "dwarf", even the per the rules he is six-foot-three in game as well.
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I get what you're saying here but a turtle using his shell is not a dodge, and I don't see how it would get accepted on that basis alone. If you have to stretch a justification, that alone may be a hint you shouldn't do it.
 
Oh, I totally agree, it's absolutely cheesy. It's just also not that big a deal, really, at least from my perspective. I'd rather someone play the character they want than the best approximation that has the racials they wanted. In the end I feel like neither a single Dodge or Resist Magic or even both is gamebreaking enough that it warrants poo-pooing someone's desire to play a lemming-kin if that's their heart's desire. The game isn't overrun with dark elf scouts, it won't get saturated with magic resistant dodge-tastic goat people.
 
By the way, not saying that a turtle can't have dodge. If someone can come up with a plausible explanation I'm all for it. Some are pretty fast after all.
And also for the record, I have no problem with kin having resist magic, or for that matter resist necro or resist command and gypsy curse
 
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