Your Least Favorite Foe

stonegolem

Scholar
Marshal
So I joined a plot staff and was immediately showered by support from all sides which was super. Given trust and affectionate criticism, I have thus far enjoyed my time immensely. However, my main concern from the get-go was (as I feel it ought to be) "Are the PCs enjoying my stuff?"

I have a toolbox filled with every toy in the database, and everything my devious and cruel mind can cook up, but it occurs to me that there are things I could do that would literally cause a person to quit the field in OOG disgust. So I bring the question to you.

Gentle Reader, what do you despair to see on the field? What monsters make you roll your eyes and sigh? What abilities have you come up against that made you want to take your tusks out and go get a cheeseburger? And why do you dislike them so?

Personally, I have come to be gun-shy around fear effects, because removing someone from the fight can very quickly turn into simply removing them from the ability to play the game.
 
Personally, I *abhor* silly monsters. Candy golems, annoying kobolds that exist only to get in your face and annoy you until you attack them, cliched villians to the point that they are a parody of what they are striving to be, and dancing goblins that would (in any sane world) have been utterly wiped out long ago, since their way of life makes no rational sense in the game world - all of these things take me out of the game more than they give me enjoyment. It is a huge deal to me to be in a consistent world, where things make sense within their own framework. While the Alliance rules and policy stretch this some, there is no question in my mind that I enjoy campaigns to strive for internal consistency and rationality (within the game framework) far more than those who throw out random things that are ridiculous or silly for their own sake.

That said, I recognize that many players do not feel this way, and many people *do* enjoy the silliness that comes along with some plot styles. Which, of course, is the biggest problem you're likely to find as a plot person: No two people like the same things :)

-Bryan
 
No issue with fear effects myself, between Resist Fear, Resist Command and Break Command (plus similar cloaks/banes) they're easy to avoid and fix.

Really I don't have a problem with any of the effects in the game, where I get frustrated is when you run into massive layered defenses. I know it makes absolute sense for a smart beastie with resources to purchase/learn/make defensives to cover their weak spot, but there's a fine line. It's not really fun to fight something that has 10+ seperate defenses for each effect that can hurt it. Throwing 9 Prisons to get 1 to resolve is no fun for anyone.

Part of this is unavoidable. PCs have skills at their disposal (especially on the "I swing pipe" end) that make these defenses almost required if the baddie is going to stay up for more than 10 seconds and it's not likely that the pop and drop skills will be taken out. Couple this with the reality that the big bads tend to end up engaging 5+ PCs at once and the problem gets even harder to fix.

I'm ok with pretty much anything an NPC camp wants to throw out as long as it's fair. No bad guys rifting in next to you, grabbing you and rifting out so that you essentially instarez, no whipping Oblits and Shatter Spirits just to make an encounter "scary," no "control (PC race) by voice" abilities and the like.

My least favorite foes are the ones that don't engage me on an internal IG level. I want to IG hate these baddies for what they've done and what they are, I don't want to OOG hate them because they're loaded with defenses and no fun to fight.

-toddo
 
For me, it is a foe that is contrived. I want adversaries to fit in the world, to make sense. I don't want someone whose entire motivation in life is "to kill all elves." I want someone whose life quest is to kill all elves *because* [something that caused them to want to kill elves.]

Somewhat worse than that is any adversary that is "on rails." If, in the course of interaction with the game world, a character's motivation for something is removed, and they do it anyway - because it's in the writeup - well that just kinda sucks. I'd rather have 10 hours of trolls attacking to end an event that a wave battle that *should* have been averted.

That said, I will fully cop to being responsible for probably more than my fair share of "silly" encounters over the decades. Never a candy golem, though...

-Paul
 
A lot of mine goes with Zymm's answers. Especially the 'on rails' villains.

Adding another, scripting a wave battle that the PCs can never win, without having been a consequence of PC actions (Although this may go with 'on rails').

Nothing to me is more frustrating in a wave battle than having thrown the kitchen sink at something, and having nothing work. If he/she's super powerful and all of us ran to wards? Cool. But the inevitable "We cannot do anything to stop this so we sit and wait to see what happens." can be incredibly frustrating if it happens too often.

Also, if you find yourself looking at your plot going "I'm going to drag the PCs through this debacle, but there's something really cool on the other side." The other side has to be worth everything leading up to it. Otherwise the debacle will cost you people who are tired of that particular encounter/plotline/etc.

There's also a time and a place for silly stuff - I'm definitely a player who doesn't really enjoy it, unless I'm playing a silly character. Which doesn't happen often.
-Ali
 
I can't remember it's larpcast 26 or 28 that's a really good segment on this topic (and I can't check from work.) I recommend listening to both since they were both good episodes.

Personally, I hate enemies that I am fighting because they are clearly the bad guy, and that's why we're fighting him. Why are we fighting him? What's his goal(s)? Is he intractable? Why does he have the perspective he does?

It's the difference between Sephiroth and Ultimecia. You want Sephiroth villains, not Ultimecia villains. Which is to say, you want villains that engage emotionally... but that doesn't mean they always have to be super "I hate you" evil, just engaging.

Also, Fear isn't so bad. Terror is just unmitigated NO FUN. (Did I emphasize that enough?)

Also, don't monologue unless you've taken steps to make sure that the Incredible adventurers aren't going to sneak around while you're distracted and break your death ray.
 
Yeah, avoid Terror at pretty much all costs; without getting into a big debate about it, I'd personally avoid playing in a chapter where a plot team gave up so hard they had to use that effect.

However, monologuing so that the adventurers get behind you and destroy your death ray can make for a really cool story and an awesome encounter for those sneaky adventurers, just learn better next time.

I don't like Circle/Ward fights where the NPC is playing smart and won't risk coming out of their protection. Sure, that's the logical thing to do, but it makes for a really boring and tedious fight.

I don't like creatures that have really long regenerate/renew/whatever counts, where you've essentially got to kill them several times and wait 5 or 10 minutes each time to do it. You lose fight momentum and end up losing people to boredom.

I'm OK with the occasional silly monster, but they should never have the ability to force you to interact with them or have powers that make it so that you can't just get rid of them somehow. I usually see this problem with Fey.


There's another side of this, though is the player version of the same problem, from a plotster's perspective. I really only bring this up because of the "Rails" issue that was mentioned. Every once in a while you get an NPC who is just written a specific way and the writer is unwilling to allow the PCs to alter the character or their goals through a means that doesn't involve swinging pipe at them. That sucks, and I get that that can be frustrating, especially if it's common. The PCs should be able to affect the game world, and sometimes that means turning this week's BBG into an ally because some group hatched an amazing plan. On the other hand, there are PCs who are convinced that every NPC can be saved and get really peeved when they can't do it, or want to talk their way out of every combat all weekend and get mad OOG when they get killed by those gnolls they were 'sure would see reason.' These types of things lead to accusations of plots/NPCs "Being on the Rails" regardless of whether or not that was the case. Some people just have unreasonable expectations.

In the end, we're playing a 'swinging sticks at each other' game, so the bulk of plot's job each weekend boils down to giving most of the players a reason to swing sticks at something. There has to be some suspension of disbelief here that the players are willing to accept: Not every BBG can be talked out of attacking the town because the players expect something to attack the town every Saturday night, and most BBGs ignore the fact that every BBG prior to them has been foiled by the local adventurers and beat down in a big fight, yet they keep coming. Sometimes you've got to wring your hands together and go "Muwahaha!" so that the the characters will get over their moral reservations and stop looking for reasons that they should just snuggle with you because you're clearly just misunderstood and they can save you if they try. It's easy to stamp the "Kill me, I'm the bad guy" label on things like Undead, Necromancers, and Slavers, but after that it becomes progressively more difficult to convince people that your bad guys are bad guys without dangling someone over a shark tank and assuming that they'll die if you leave your minions to tend to their fate. Some BBGs you can get a lot of good RP in with, but they're still going to be bad, because at the end of the weekend, "that big field on site (every chapter's got one)" had better be covered in birdseed, 'cause that's what keeps people showing up. The PCs aren't Heroes if there aren't any Villains.
 
Toddo said:
I'm ok with pretty much anything an NPC camp wants to throw out as long as it's fair. No bad guys rifting in next to you, grabbing you and rifting out so that you essentially instarez, no whipping Oblits and Shatter Spirits just to make an encounter "scary," no "control (PC race) by voice" abilities and the like.
-toddo

QFT, I agree soooooo much with this statement, specially the fair part. My least fav foe is the merchant coming into to town that is immune to every thing. Really? Seriously? If you are that powerful, go take over the world, not sell me a long sword and a shield for 3g.

Another thing is the "point and click" BBG. I can kill you by pointing my finger and even kill you by my voice. Its cheesy and so would be making my self deaf to avoid it.

But the biggest one is the guy that avoids some people to go after others for NO REASON. Screw that, if I insulted your mom, fine come get me. If I unloaded 5000 pts into you, come get some. If I am trying to make a deal with you, handed over a few transform to greater undead scrolls and sticks, kiss my a$$. This might fall under the "rail roading" comments, but just because you are an evil BBG doesn't mean that you don't have any loyalties. Specially if you have some one on the other side helping you out. Oh how I miss Creep Show ;) (I understand that most evil guys are just plain crazy and insane).

Oh and Terror, that just sucks...no fun. Go run and hide and curl into a ball even if you are 45th level and have killed every thing under the sun. Oh yeah and you can't defend your self at all.
 
Gilwing said:
Oh and Terror, that just sucks...no fun. Go run and hide and curl into a ball even if you are 45th level and have killed every thing under the sun. Oh yeah and you can't defend your self at all.

Terror does suck. It's no fun to have to deal with. But being 45th level has nothing to do with whether or not you should be affected by a game effect, imho. It might feel crappy, but them's the breaks.

For me, Terror is probably the only thing I would absolutely hate having to deal with, I think. Aside from that, I mostly trust plot teams to run a story and world that will be worthwhile, both in the short term and in the long term. I may not see the cool factor now, but I might in 6 months.

Also: Come out to the west coast, we'll make you scared and we won't use Terror or Fear to do it. ;) There Are Worse Things Than Death®™.
 
I personally dislike big time multiple defense baddies because they draw the high level characters and make it hard for lower level characters to feel involved in the fight. All of the thrill of a dangerous fight goes away for me when there is one big bad guy because all of the sudden everything else seems insignificant and I know that I am pretty much not threatened at all if I am not fighting the big bad guy. Such as the Dracolich fight in the last Oregon event. The Dracolich was awesome and the situation was terrifying but as soon as I realized that i couldn't attack hard enough to get through its threshold I got pretty bored fairly quickly because I became one of the sizable group of low to mid level characters stuck fighting mundane undead.

I would rather fight a fight that forces high and low level characters to work together so that there is a chance that someone other than the super high level players can have a chance of being the hero of the day.
 
I've been saying that for a long time. All too often, there is a serious case of 'welp, BBG time, all you lowbies go take a nap while the high level teams deal with the plot', and that is terrible.

Slightly less terrible, but more likely to make me walk off the field are wave battles against critters with dual claws and disabling carriers. These almost inevitably turn into meatgrinders for the low level characters when the chorus of 'banecloakdodgeresistriposteparryevade' from the higher end send frustrated npc players looking for targets who will take their effects.
 
I like realistically scaled fights. I really enjoy being able to manipulate the world around me.

I really don't dig overkill style villains. I don't mind if I am out classed or leveled but something with so many immunities and a high threshold is kinda boring to me. I like a fight that makes me think. Not a tedious brawl, to whittle down the guy with too much HP.
 
My question to the last few posters:

If you were the one in charge of making a town fight fun, exciting and interesting for the players and you had a spread of player levels from 3-43, with a 1:3 NPC to PC ratio, how would you do it?

I ask because I don't know of many ways to keep BBGs and their major henchmen alive long enough for a good fight, other than thresholds, large amounts of body, and layered defensives. There's always the split wave battle, or some sort of trick to make only some people able to affect the BBG via a plot device (mark, pantherghast style monster, ritual of woe, etc).

Also important to keep in mind is that everyone has a different preferred style of game. Some love the defensives game, others enjoy the moral quandary of a likable bad guy. Some always want to be the hero, others like the stuff that challenges and scares them so much the line blurs until they're completely immersed.
 
phedre said:
My question to the last few posters:

If you were the one in charge of making a town fight fun, exciting and interesting for the players and you had a spread of player levels from 3-43, with a 1:3 NPC to PC ratio, how would you do it?

I ask because I don't know of many ways to keep BBGs and their major henchmen alive long enough for a good fight, other than thresholds, large amounts of body, and layered defensives. There's always the split wave battle, or some sort of trick to make only some people able to affect the BBG via a plot device (mark, pantherghast style monster, ritual of woe, etc).

Also important to keep in mind is that everyone has a different preferred style of game. Some love the defensives game, others enjoy the moral quandary of a likable bad guy. Some always want to be the hero, others like the stuff that challenges and scares them so much the line blurs until they're completely immersed.

Honestly, I prefer game tricks like split waves to just piling on more defenses on the BBG's card. Big crowds vs single human-sized monster is generally a pain in the rear to marshal in anything approaching a fair manner, and really isn't much fun for whoever gets stuck playing the BBG. So, my ideal theory :

I'd set it up so the players have something to defend, rather than letting them be on the offense. Say there is a series of ritual magics they have to cast, in a specific order so the town is defending the local circle for x period of time. My preference would be something fun like an hour, more if the PCs screw it up. Either let a player find out via an earlier mod, or have whatever NPC/PC leader know to let it be known that the BBG has a horde of weaker minions that is going to try to force their way in by attrition. Keep the players interested by having the BBG out at a safe distance from their lines, encouraging his minions and occasionally throwing poorly aimed packet attacks at particularly annoying taunts.

Once each ritual is completed successfully, bump up the power of the minions slightly as the BBG gets more worried and calls in tougher stuff. Occasionally (my sense of the dramatic says just after each ritual completes), have the NPCs die in place, and stop spawning for a few minutes to take a breather and let the players do the same. Keep the pressure on, though, you want to establish the feeling that the people holding the line are all that is keeping this going. Tension is half the fun.

Once a half or so of them have been cast, start having single more powerful minions rift in behind the lines, to peel off the higher level PC's into dealing with them. Just before the last ritual finishes, have the BBG rush the circle with all of the available NPCs.

If your level split is -really- uneven, say 15 pc's under level 20 and 20 in the 35+ range, then you could split the mod entirely and need casters in both an Earth and Celestial circle, allowing your players to discover that one or the other is likely to draw lesser opposition. That gets tough given the low number of NPCs, though, so you might be better off sending them to go find a ritual component you just discovered you need for the last spell, being held in the enemy camp. It helps to establish a named lieutenant to the BBG in the plot specifically for this, and to serve as a later BBG after being thwarted. The low-level folks will -love- having someone they thwarted earlier come back for revenge months or years down the line, and sneaking in to do damage by hitting 'em where they don't expect it is great fun for the little guy.

The hard part of this is how you do treasure distribution in such a manner that it doesn't feel like a long fight for nothing to the people on the line, since they're likely to be too busy to loot.

So there's my quick high-level thought on the matter.
 
personally, the only way I have seen the Wide Level Variance work out effectively for most everyone is the Simultaneous Dual Mod(tm) option.

High-bies have a Mod with Objective X.

Low-bies have a Mod with Objective Y.

Both Objectives are needed to happen at the same time so as to avoid the enemies from having the upper hand at either spot and being able to bring in 'overwhelming numbers of reserves.'
This allows Monster Camp to double hook players into the opposite mod, gives both groups their BBG (just because Captain Jones is in the High-bie mod, Corporal Mitchell can be leading the Low-bie mod), and keeps everyone that wants to partake to partake.
 
phedre said:
My question to the last few posters:

If you were the one in charge of making a town fight fun, exciting and interesting for the players and you had a spread of player levels from 3-43, with a 1:3 NPC to PC ratio, how would you do it?

I ask because I don't know of many ways to keep BBGs and their major henchmen alive long enough for a good fight, other than thresholds, large amounts of body, and layered defensives. There's always the split wave battle, or some sort of trick to make only some people able to affect the BBG via a plot device (mark, pantherghast style monster, ritual of woe, etc).

Also important to keep in mind is that everyone has a different preferred style of game. Some love the defensives game, others enjoy the moral quandary of a likable bad guy. Some always want to be the hero, others like the stuff that challenges and scares them so much the line blurs until they're completely immersed.

Well I am one of the people in charge of making any fight fun (at least in Seattle). PCs do a really nice job of reverse metagaming in town fights. Highbies aren't lowbie fun crushers in our chapter. Minions are scaled appropriately to low level characters and highbies focus on their part of the battle. Highbies take on things with more body and more effects/immunities but I never scale it ridiculous. Highbie scaled things are usually played by our guild and plot members and they act like PCs. They heal and defend each other and have PC tactics. I don't need to railroad PCs with unbeatable monsters.

I also think town attacks should be used realistically and sparingly. I hate the idea that their needs to be a town attack every game. We often have a 3:1 or 4:1 PC to NPC ratio. We use environment, head games, darkness, fear (not the effect), and tactics to keep things interesting.

I am okay with the occasional big boss (like a season closer) with high HP but I think most people should be able to effect it in a number of ways. It's always lame to throw your big things and hear no effect. I would rather chip away than be ineffective.
 
evi1r0n said:
Well I am one of the people in charge of making any fight fun (at least in Seattle). PCs do a really nice job of reverse metagaming in town fights. Highbies aren't lowbie fun crushers in our chapter. Minions are scaled appropriately to low level characters and highbies focus on their part of the battle. Highbies take on things with more body and more effects/immunities but I never scale it ridiculous. Highbie scaled things are usually played by our guild and plot members and they act like PCs. They heal and defend each other and have PC tactics. I don't need to railroad PCs with unbeatable monsters.

I also think town attacks should be used realistically and sparingly. I hate the idea that their needs to be a town attack every game. We often have a 3:1 or 4:1 PC to NPC ratio. We use environment, head games, darkness, fear (not the effect), and tactics to keep things interesting.

I am okay with the occasional big boss (like a season closer) with high HP but I think most people should be able to effect it in a number of ways. It's always lame to throw your big things and hear no effect. I would rather chip away than be ineffective.

This ^^^

I agree that the big time big boss is necessary and is very fun for a lot of people but I prefer fighting enemies in which there are multiple mid-high level enemies fighting tactically versus the fights where there is one or two big baddies and a bunch of weaker enemies.
 
Yames said:
evi1r0n said:
Well I am one of the people in charge of making any fight fun (at least in Seattle). PCs do a really nice job of reverse metagaming in town fights. Highbies aren't lowbie fun crushers in our chapter. Minions are scaled appropriately to low level characters and highbies focus on their part of the battle. Highbies take on things with more body and more effects/immunities but I never scale it ridiculous. Highbie scaled things are usually played by our guild and plot members and they act like PCs. They heal and defend each other and have PC tactics. I don't need to railroad PCs with unbeatable monsters.

I also think town attacks should be used realistically and sparingly. I hate the idea that their needs to be a town attack every game. We often have a 3:1 or 4:1 PC to NPC ratio. We use environment, head games, darkness, fear (not the effect), and tactics to keep things interesting.

I am okay with the occasional big boss (like a season closer) with high HP but I think most people should be able to effect it in a number of ways. It's always lame to throw your big things and hear no effect. I would rather chip away than be ineffective.

This ^^^

I agree that the big time big boss is necessary and is very fun for a lot of people but I prefer fighting enemies in which there are multiple mid-high level enemies fighting tactically versus the fights where there is one or two big baddies and a bunch of weaker enemies.

And this just goes to show that the more experienced/good NPC's you have the more you can do this kind of thing.

Sometimes you get stuck with 2 or 3 people who can really 'handle' and play mid-high level enemies well while RP'ing and all. In those circumstances you often can't have so many big bads... Basically more NPC's is always awesome. :thumbsup:
 
Dreamingfurther said:
Sometimes you get stuck with 2 or 3 people who can really 'handle' and play mid-high level enemies well while RP'ing and all. In those circumstances you often can't have so many big bads... Basically more NPC's is always awesome. :thumbsup:

I don't think people realize how hard it is to play a "BBG", or even the higher-end minions, and to do it well. You say "stuck" with people who can do that, I say "lucky to have people" who can do that. :)
 
Yeah, I like having a large (~10) group of good NPCs, and that's how I handle most of those sorts of issues. We've got an "NPC Guild" in our (Seattle) chapter (and so does Oregon), where people commit to NPCing regularly for a year or more, and we don't let just anyone join. After a few events, I can hand most of our people a "reasonably big BG" and not worry about how it gets played, since at that point I know the person, what their skills are, how they play things, and what kind of encounter they're likely to create. Once I've got 5-10 of those people, I don't need BBGs anymore. Sure, we've got two or three 'bigger' BGs that the PCs recognize on sight when they come out, but they don't need 1000 body if they're surrounded by competent 'minions.' The problem that this has created (there's always a downside) is that as our NPCs have gotten better at fighting and working in a group, we've had to scale their cards back; the difference between an NPC playing a 15th level fighter card that they're comfortable with and working in a group is as more effective than just a 15th level fighter as two people with the same card when one has played for 10 years and the other is at their first event. It's a weird thing to scale for.
 
Back
Top