Your Least Favorite Foe

Ok, the split level wave battle seems to be a popular option.

What happens if your player base isn't a fan of them, or they've done so much double-hooking (which isn't a common practice on the east coast, it seems to be much more frequent on the WC) that they're not down for shucking armor and gear yet again?

I've had the privilege of playing a Seattle event a couple months ago, and plan on attending the one later this month. I was really impressed by the atmosphere that you guys had going on. I was in the group that didn't fight the way into town at the event before that, so we got our own little "walk into town" experience after opening ceremonies... I was ready to leave people behind if they were dumb, because I was pretty sure with those monsters, I'd end up rezzing. One of the benefits that you guys have that lends to that feeling in the air is that there's really one major plotline going on: new place.

What about chapters that have a 1-event plotline going on, a couple 1 or 2 season plotlines currently chugging along, one 5 year plot in it's final year and another in it's first? They already have an established feel, and lots of foes that currently need fighting. It's a matter of personal preference which one you want to be on the front lines dying for, and which one you're just in it for the fighting practice. How do you make sure that the people there who are ready to die get the epic fight they're looking for, and the ones not so invested don't get bored with wave after wave of crunchies?

Wraith, I really like the scenario with the rituals. We did something similar in the Catskills chapter, but kept the monsters the same size since the level cap was (I think) 105 build... they ended up stretched tight on resources as it was, but the feedback we got about the mechanic of the battle was phenomenal.
 
phedre said:
What about chapters that have a 1-event plotline going on, a couple 1 or 2 season plotlines currently chugging along, one 5 year plot in it's final year and another in it's first? They already have an established feel, and lots of foes that currently need fighting. It's a matter of personal preference which one you want to be on the front lines dying for, and which one you're just in it for the fighting practice. How do you make sure that the people there who are ready to die get the epic fight they're looking for, and the ones not so invested don't get bored with wave after wave of crunchies?

The way I would try to address this issue is to try to de-tune the big baddies a bit and add more mid-high level lieutenant type characters for lack of a better word. I would try to eliminate the simple 12 body swinging 2 damage crunchies as much as I can because unless you have a ton of them they really don't keep up with anything above the lowest level characters anyway. (I have double hooked on a mod that had a ton of low level undead and a few gryphons against a group of highbies and we almost whiped the whole party so they can be intimidating when you have a lot). My main point is that I think if you can have more monsters stated around the apl you will be able to entertain those people who are less involved in the plot or lower level while those who are very involved in the plot and/or high level can have fun attacking the main big baddie and a couple of the highest level minions. That way everyone has to work together in some fashion in order to win the battle.
 
phedre said:
Wraith, I really like the scenario with the rituals. We did something similar in the Catskills chapter, but kept the monsters the same size since the level cap was (I think) 105 build... they ended up stretched tight on resources as it was, but the feedback we got about the mechanic of the battle was phenomenal.

See, that's what I like to see, both as a player and as an NPC. I want people to feel a bit desperate, to know at the end of a fight that they got through on their own skill, determination, and a little bit of luck. It makes for much more player engagement.
 
We do have double hooking on occasion but I never bank on it happening. We have a very enthusiastic player base who don't mind double hooking and we have custom masks for all our monster types so people don't have to take off their makeup to doublehook but it has become less frequent as of late.

Our NPC guild is where our strength comes from. Between plot and guild we have about 12 "professional" NPCs. We all meet before events online to discuss roles and what's going on at the event. We give guild members a lot of the meta plot and let them run with their NPCs.
 
My least favorite foe? Any base monster with the ability Spell Guard. Especially when said monster usually comes out in groups with 3 Spell Guards minimum per monster. Since I split spell prep between support and offense, just two of these monsters would probably suck up half, to nearly all, of my offensive repertoire. So this generally forces me to sit back and watch the fight, and puts more pressure on the fighters, who aren't going to get any casting support against their targets. Sure, I'll heal and support, but this becomes inherently more necessary since I'm unable to do anything about the enemies directly. That's not fun at all, and I feel pigeonholed at prep time into preparing purely support/healing spells just because my offense is likely going to be useless.
 
We're lucky to have a plot member for our campaign who is great at customizing monsters...we have a variety of local fauna which have a (somewhat) logical weakness to counter their strength. For example, we have Feyborne Hyenas who swing for decent damage with a Laugh carrier, have moderate body totals, and are immune to all alchemical effects except for Laugh. We have similar mantids with stony claws who swing pretty hard but take Shatters and Destroys as "über-weaknesses". It's always on our mind when discussing these monsters that there be sensical strengths/weaknesses without layering multiple defenses.

Additionally, for each monster type that we think up, we make a "weaker" and "stronger" version which are denoted by putting a green or red sash, respectively, on the NPC. These sashes represent a visual, physical difference (to avoid "what do I see?" questions) between creatures of the same type. So a green-sashed hyena might be smaller or a baby. A red-sashed one looks much larger like an alpha male/female. It then becomes easy to scale up/down a mod by adding sashes one way or another and it allows for reverse metagaming as the bigger fighters take on the bigger baddies and leave the smaller stuff for others to have fun with.

-Luke
 
My favorite foes are those that have interesting strengths and weaknesses that fit with the theme of the monster/mod, and those that require a change from the standard ways of dealing with Alliance monsters. My least favorite foes are those that go too far, overshoot making you think tactically, and instead wind up with you being pigeonholed into very specific roles or just continually getting one-shotted because you don't have the protective du jour.

Some of my Obnoxiousness All-Stars:

- Swinging or throwing for high amounts of damage (relative to the level of characters meant to encounter them) that comes with a carrier that makes either blocking or armor useless (Massive, Chaos, Elemental, Body, etc.).
- Chain-casting any of the No Game Abilities effects, especially Prison, more than an average of 1 time per monster per wave.
- Monsters that die in one hit to balance having totally devastating capabilities (multiple Shatter Spirits or Oblits, for example) on their cards.
- Monsters that can continually hit you with effects that make you spend money and prevent weapon-users from fulfilling their roles until they can do so (Shatter, Acidic Blood).
- Monsters that are immune to too many different things ("I call no effect to Curses, Binding, Alteration, Command, and Evocation!") or are only affected by (not vulnerable to, only affected by) one carrier or type of effect, such that the odds more than one character can affect them become very low.

One caveat, because I am way too wordy for my own good: all of the above can actually be fun and exciting if done in the right away and at the right time. If a level 8 PC goes on a mod that was clearly meant to hook the level 30 Fighter and his level 28 Earth Scholar buddy who he happens to have become friends with, the level 8 PC is not within his rights to bitch when he's getting one-shotted. If the PCs destroy the favorite henchghoul of a vampire they know is super-powerful, they have invited as a consequence the possibility that that vampire will whip up a batch of spawn and come roll the tavern.

But if a monster comes barreling into the tavern for no apparent reason, swinging for 20 with each hand and throwing Spell Strike Death seemingly at will, or if the lowbie mod meant for the new PCs who just rolled into town with 15 Build has a final boss who repeatedly Spell Strike Shatters their weapons or has a threshold above 2, then I start calling shenanigans.
 
So, this last post in particular leads me to pose a couple of questions:
Tylo said:
Some of my Obnoxiousness All-Stars:
- Chain-casting any of the No Game Abilities effects, especially Prison, more than an average of 1 time per monster per wave.
- Monsters that are immune to too many different things ("I call no effect to Curses, Binding, Alteration, Command, and Evocation!")
Do you feel the same way about the PCs? PCs have spells and alchemy (which are generally mostly 'one shot take outs'), why shouldn't NPCs have access to those same abilities? Why should NPCs be restricted from having 9th level spells? Golems make PCs immune to a much longer list then the one you've written as your example, so I assume that you find those obnoxious as well, but the PCs have access to them, why not the NPCs?
- Monsters that can continually hit you with effects that make you spend money and prevent weapon-users from fulfilling their roles until they can do so (Shatter, Acidic Blood).
What should people with the Blacksmith skill be doing? Why not change your tactic when fighting these creatures? If not for replacing and upgrading your gear, what should you be spending your money on?
 
Thank you for the questions! I will do my best to answer them, with the caveat this is only my opinion and is entirely colored by my experiences with (NERO) Alliance, many of which are old and a product of a different time and overall game philosophy.

In general, I want to clarify: None of these things is, by itself, un-fun. Sometimes frustrating in the heat of the moment, but not detrimental to my fun. It is when these things are done too often, are not treated as difficult to handle, are un-telegraphed in their appearance on the field, or are put in places where they will all but assuredly wind up fighting characters who cannot deal with them (due either to bad scaling or to the stats being given to NPCs who are not meant to be "aimed" - which I guess is another form of bad scaling). I am not advocating for monsters to be pushovers, to be forbidden from having abilities, or from doing things that make me change tactics. My upset is with overuse of these very, very difficult opponents.

obcidian_bandit said:
Do you feel the same way about the PCs? PCs have spells and alchemy (which are generally mostly 'one shot take outs'), why shouldn't NPCs have access to those same abilities? Why should NPCs be restricted from having 9th level spells? Golems make PCs immune to a much longer list then the one you've written as your example, so I assume that you find those obnoxious as well, but the PCs have access to them, why not the NPCs?

Re: spells: No, NPCs should not be restricted from having PC abilities when it makes sense for them to have them. That said, intelligent NPC casters and alchemists are some of the most dangerous foes you are likely to see outside of really big, most-definitely-a-boss-type monsters, so they should be utilized carefully. My issue with CC spam is when it winds up being spam of such a high volume it feels like I might as well just say I was hit by the first one and save everyone the trouble (how high that volume is really depends on the scaling), and when it winds up becoming one-note and unvaried. I like seeing some Entangles, some Wither Limbs, some Weakness, etc., coming out of the NPCs, in addition to the old high-end favorites of Prison, Nausea, Laugh, and Paralysis, with a dash of Fear.

Re: immunities: I do think that golems are too powerful. What I meant to say with my bad attempt at a laundry list of immunities, is that I dislike seeing PCs more or less give up on a mod because they can't do anything.

What should people with the Blacksmith skill be doing? Why not change your tactic when fighting these creatures? If not for replacing and upgrading your gear, what should you be spending your money on?

I agree, we should spend some of our money replacing and upgrading. What I am referring to is Shatter/Destroy spam above and beyond the amount needed to get through defensives and have some of us take them, or an entire mod of monsters that have Acidic Blood, such that the party winds up losing a huge chunk of their gear to a single mod. I most especially dislike this happening to newer players who have not built up the coin or connections to deal with getting replacements. I don't mind if some stuff is lost and they now have a goal to accomplish, I dislike it when they are not really able to do anything until they accomplish that goal.

Again: All of this can be OK if the PCs have a way to find out it's going to happen and prep for it, or when these things are used as the nasty encounters they are.

Does that answer all your questions? :)
 
Mostly. I'm always interested in what people think they should be spending their money on. We hear sometimes about people complaining that they spent all their money on potions, or ritual scrolls, or whatever, but if they're not spending money on those things, then what? There's a willingness to 'spend money to make money' but to what end? Cooler gear, to kill bigger baddies, to get cooler gear, to kill bigger baddies. Why not leach money off somewhere else, and stop inflating the baddies?
 
obcidian_bandit said:
Mostly. I'm always interested in what people think they should be spending their money on. We hear sometimes about people complaining that they spent all their money on potions, or ritual scrolls, or whatever, but if they're not spending money on those things, then what? There's a willingness to 'spend money to make money' but to what end? Cooler gear, to kill bigger baddies, to get cooler gear, to kill bigger baddies. Why not leach money off somewhere else, and stop inflating the baddies?

What else is there worth spending your money on? Get rendered/damage aura weapon, get arcane armor, don't worry about replacing either for years unless you lose the tag.

Mundane gear loses value quickly when stuff that is better in all ways with no drawbacks is available. Especially when it can be obtained more easily with out of game resources instead of in-game.


My current character is an intentionally coin-fed design whose damage only really comes from archery + alchemy. It works, but unless it is on mods with small teams, there's no point in me bothering because the drop rate isn't high enough to make using production items up to kill things worth it. Magic items are just that much more efficient than production.

I would -love- to see something else to spend money on, but we're rather stuck in a loop of 'players want more MIs, to fight bigger baddies, who in turn drop more MI's, so the next set has to be scaled even higher' that doesn't have an end outside of items leaving the game when players decide to stop playing.
 
That pretty much sums up why I'm interested in figuring out what people want to spend money on. If the sole motivation is "Bigger stuff," even at the high end, no wonder we have a bloat problem.
 
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