0.10 - Takeout Abilities: Are they needed?

Does Alliance really need Takeout abilities?

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 39.4%
  • No

    Votes: 18 54.5%
  • Raccoons are scavengers, I don't care what you say

    Votes: 14 42.4%

  • Total voters
    33

Saephis

Squire
A lot of the current conflict of abilities and spells are focused on Takeout abilities -- whether its Confine, Web, or Prison for casters, or Terminate and Eviscerate via weapons. But the question hasn't really been asked -- Is the ability to invalidate the rest of a card really necessary?

For instance, if the ability to just make a character entirely immobile or reduce their body to zero just ... went away, and it came down to limb disabling, slowing effects, and the like, how much of the current conflict of rules would evaporate?
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
I have always been a fan of debuffs, soft crowd control, or effects that can be easily broken without players needing to expend resources - provided they’re thinking intelligently.

I feel that we should be looking to use effects that allow players to continue contributing to encounters, even if in a diminished capacity, as opposed to excluding them from it.

I believe that if takeouts are a thing, they should be a rare, scary, and higher level thing, so that when players see them, they know that things are dire. Currently there are so many takeouts in Alliance, that are so readily available, that it feels like people aren’t so much impressed by or afraid of them, as they have simply begrudgingly acccepted them as a near constant.
 

Octal

Newbie
I picked No, even though I think an option of 'very few' or something like that wold have been a better pick for me.
I think we need less, but some here and there would still be good to have.
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
I like takeout effects. I like the sense of urgency, I like being able to throw them and get myself quickly out of a bind (well not a Bind, but you know), I like that most of them seem to be relatively rare (when cards are built in a balanced fashion), and that most of them have a variety of fixes. Without takeout effects, it would be nearly impossible to play a rogue without investing heavily into body or heavy armor, or play a scholar and run in to save a friend's life.
 

Tantarus

Squire
I think Eviscerate and Terminate are the right level of KO skills a character should be able to get. which is about 1 per 9 levels, give or take. More if you are templar/adept. At as a templar level 39 I have 2 eviscerates. As a fighter I would have 4-5. That seems fine to me.

Where as a caster of my level has probably 40 KO effects, maybe more.
 

MondayMcGee

Scholar
San Francisco Staff
I also voted "no" but my actual thought is more in line with what has been expressed by others, which is they should be much more rare, and effects that debilitate, but do not remove you from the fight, should be more common.

As an example, I'm really not a fan of the change to Wither in v2. I actually really enjoy the effect as it exists in 1.3 -- you are faced with the choice of whether or not you can still be effective without your off hand, or hopping on one leg, or what have you, or whether the situation merits the use of a status remover to get you to full capacity. In v2 it becomes just a hard takeout -- either use a status remover, or go sit down for 10 minutes.
 

Alavatar

Baron
I also voted 'No' with the same thought as others: that capstone abilities as KO effects are OK. As it stands, I think casters have too many KO abilities in comparison to other classes.

I like Andy's idea of designing access to them based on level. Heck, I would even be okay with class and level (i.e. fighters do sustained damage, have more Body, but KO 1 per ~8 levels, rogues do spike damage, have moderate Body, but KO 1 per ~6 levels, scholars do high spike damage in low volume, low body, and 1 KO per ~4 levels).
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
I picked "yes" because what's the difference if I web you or take you out with 2 damage spells instead?
The better question is, do we have too many take outs? Yes, yes we do.

*Edit* I will also say that, just becaus some one is webbed or the like doesn't necessarily make them ko'ed. Be smart and play with others to help you out.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I went with Yes.

That being said, I think doing the following would be great:

1) Removing Web and Confine from the game.

2) Move Prison to Binding.

3) This is a soft boost to Dryads.
 

Melimir

Newbie
Asheville Staff
Are monsters that throw a lot of takeout spells common in the database? I've seen it generally jump from webs/arcane entangles from spiders, straight to deaths/shatter spirits with really nothing in between.
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
Are monsters that throw a lot of takeout spells common in the database? I've seen it generally jump from webs/arcane entangles from spiders, straight to deaths/shatter spirits with really nothing in between.
Unfortunately since Plot teams can and do customize their cards, the monsters seen in live play may vary from the database, as well as from chapter to chapter.
 

Graham Wolsey

Scholar
Denver Staff
Marshal
I have always been a fan of debuffs, soft crowd control, or effects that can be easily broken without players needing to expend resources - provided they’re thinking intelligently.

I feel that we should be looking to use effects that allow players to continue contributing to encounters, even if in a diminished capacity, as opposed to excluding them from it.

I believe that if takeouts are a thing, they should be a rare, scary, and higher level thing, so that when players see them, they know that things are dire. Currently there are so many takeouts in Alliance, that are so readily available, that it feels like people aren’t so much impressed by or afraid of them, as they have simply begrudgingly acccepted them as a near constant.
This post very neatly sums up my feelings on takeouts. I'm not sure the number of takeouts needs to decrease for scholars, but hard vs soft CC is a critical distinction. The more "sit down for 10 minutes" effects in the game the worse the game is. Shortening the duration on hard CC across the board (not just for players with a skill because this hurts new players), and limiting hard CC is critical. Removing Web was a very good and very tiny step in the right direction, but in my opinion complete takeouts should be 9th level spells only. Alchemy also needs to be reworked so low level effects are soft CC rather than hard CC and it is very expensive to throw hard CC effects.

Suggestions for more Soft CC:
New Spell: Soothe. (Command) Lasts 1 minute, creature cannot attack you or cast offensive spells at you for 1 minute. Level 1. Available to both Earth and Celestial.
Slow. Great inclusion in new rules. Perfect at level 2.
Repel. Good where it is.
Bind (Arms) Bind (Legs). Only one should be able to effect a character at a time.
Disarm. Increase to 3rd level. This effect is good just too easy to come by. Allow this effect to discharge magical energy held in hand as well.
Lesser Silence. Player can't cast spells over level 5. Level 4 spell. Can't talk louder than a whisper.
Weakness. Cause the player to do half damage rather than 5 less damage. Increase level by 1 to 4th.
Shun. Keep.
Sleep. Allow 1 point of damage to body wake the player up. Lower level by 1 slot to 5th.
Shatter/Destroy. Remove one shatter effect and allow the weapon/armor/shield to be repaired by Blacksmith. Reduce level to 6.
Silence/Destruction. Keep, maybe increase Silence by one level to level 6.
Confine. Get rid of this.
Charm. Keep.
Stun Limb. Keep.
Paralysis. Increase to 9th level.
Death. Keep.
Prison. No killing blows in a Prison DOES last 10 minutes, move to Bindomancy.
New Spell: Doom. Ranged Eviscerate (In Evocation School) for Celestial.

I'd also keep all necromancy. Necromancers should be scary.
 
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Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
New Spell: Soothe. (Command) Lasts 1 minute, creature cannot attack you or cast offensive spells at you for 1 minute. Level 1. Available to both Earth and Celestial
That'd be great. My Stone Elf would never memorize a Cure Light again. Just like a Charm but without all the problems of maintaining a veneer of friendship. Perfect.
 

Tantarus

Squire
That'd be great. My Stone Elf would never memorize a Cure Light again. Just like a Charm but without all the problems of maintaining a veneer of friendship. Perfect.
I am starting to think that killing stone elves is not morally wrong.
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
I am starting to think that killing stone elves is not morally wrong.
Nothing is universally morally wrong. There is no such thing as a moral absolute, only widespread cultural biases. :|

So uh, takeout effects...
 

DiscOH

Artisan
Disarm @ 3 would never be cast.

Disarm @ 2 would probably need a significant buff to be cast (competes with magic armor, slow)

Disarm being 5 seconds long and countered by paste, claws, or having another weapon already gives the spell a lot of counterplay.

If you need to nerf the spell, make paste of stickiness not consumed on disarm. Then you can have people opt in to 10 minutes of holding a weapon if they're really worried about the effect.
 

Graham Wolsey

Scholar
Denver Staff
Marshal
Disarm terminate/eviscerate is a 2 hit kill of any fighter. It is really strong.

It's possible that bind arms is too low level.

I've seen someone use paste of stickiness once in 5 years. Claws aren't counterplay, they are a thing you have or not. I also did suggest a buff to the spell, that it disarms all held spell packets.
 

Tantarus

Squire
Yup I plan on fighting 2 weapons over shield/weapon for just that reason. Disarm is going to wreck shields and single weapon users. At least with 2 weapons you can parry after a disarm.
 
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