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[.10] - Relics impressions

Saephis

Squire
That is definitely not my experience. I haven't been afraid of Silence for several levels.
Okay, lower level or less experienced scholars, New Player Rep Guy.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I've had Magic Augment Purify on lock since...uh...level...15? Ish? It's literally my first priority after Rebirth.

And Remove Silence should be in every aspiring caster's inventory! <I probably didn't teach Vellis that.>
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff

Mulgrum

Newbie
I have a magic aug on purify at level 10. Its just good sense to have a get out of jail free card, especially since potions don't tend to last long around me. Once I can build my potion dagger in 2.0 I'll have a purify on it and use it like an atropine injector. Then I can move the magic aug to something more useful. Like Death.
 

Alavatar

Baron
Think of the 4 options I created as supporting 4 different playstyles or concepts. Order supports Anti-Undead, Chaos is Pro-Undead (or survive at all costs), Life is restorative, and Death is for the Earth Casters that go into combat.

@Saephis Why do you think Death will be more resistant? Also, why do you (and others that think such) believe Death (greater ability than Terminate or Eviscerate) is acceptable compared to what Celestial casters get? Getting access to a free Death every 30 Build (or whatever the calculation would be) seems to me to be a bit overpowered. It makes sense that Chaos have Corrupt to me because the risk of getting caught using Chaos vs. the reward should be justified, but free Death (curable only by a 9th level spell or another Relic power) seems overly impactful to the game.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
(Also, Corrupt would be countered by Life from...Life. Which seems thematically appropriate.)
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
...I now envision that these Relics all have personalities that bicker. Order and Chaos are slapfighting, Chaos occasionally does something underhanded, Life looks over their shoulder and says, "No," while Death secretly waits for all of them to end in their sleep.
 

Saephis

Squire
<I probably didn't teach Vellis that.>
...amongst other things...

@Saephis Why do you think Death will be more resistant?
The move to Curse puts it in the same group as "I don't want to get Silenced", for instance, rather than its own, much more narrow effect group.

Also, why do you (and others that think such) believe Death (greater ability than Terminate or Eviscerate) is acceptable compared to what Celestial casters get? Getting access to a free Death every 30 Build (or whatever the calculation would be) seems to me to be a bit overpowered. It makes sense that Chaos have Corrupt to me because the risk of getting caught using Chaos vs. the reward should be justified, but free Death (curable only by a 9th level spell or another Relic power) seems overly impactful to the game.
Terminate and Eviscerate are stopped by a second level spell, with the former being just ... get-out-of-the-way'able to negate the skill
Celestial casters get hundreds-to-thousands of points of raw damage for freesies. Having an Elemental-Shield'able Death or three (Or however the math shakes out) seems like a decent middle-ground, if they want to blow their charges that way.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
...amongst other things...


The move to Curse puts it in the same group as "I don't want to get Silenced", for instance, rather than its own, much more narrow effect group.


Terminate and Eviscerate are stopped by a second level spell, with the former being just ... get-out-of-the-way'able to negate the skill
Celestial casters get hundreds-to-thousands of points of raw damage for freesies. Having an Elemental-Shield'able Death or three (Or however the math shakes out) seems like a decent middle-ground, if they want to blow their charges that way.
Eh. I understand where you’re coming from, but man, I think Destruction is a better spell for the game as a whole than Death.
 

Alavatar

Baron
The move to Curse puts it in the same group as "I don't want to get Silenced", for instance, rather than its own, much more narrow effect group.
I don't understand how that makes the Elemental version more resistant than the Spell version, per your other post? Or did I misread that?

Terminate and Eviscerate are stopped by a second level spell, with the former being just ... get-out-of-the-way'able to negate the skill
Celestial casters get hundreds-to-thousands of points of raw damage for freesies. Having an Elemental-Shield'able Death or three (Or however the math shakes out) seems like a decent middle-ground, if they want to blow their charges that way.
Terminate and Eviscerate can be solved by healing, First Aid, and more. Damage from Celestial Wands can be solved the same way. Death, on the other hand, cannot. I guess I don't agree it is even.

Edit: Thematically, Death on a Death Relic makes sense. Balance-wise, I don't think it is a good idea. To be honest, I would not be surprised if the Ownership (collectively) believe Life on a Life Relic to be equally bad.
 

Saephis

Squire
Eh. I understand where you’re coming from, but man, I think Destruction is a better spell for the game as a whole than Death.
That's not the point, the point is equity.

In 2.0, Eviscerate is also "get-out-of-the-way'able" as you put it, as are all Fighter Skills since they're all one-swing only.
Oh, right. Physical Dodge > Former-PTD. I'd be hard pressed to take any burst damage, if I stay melee, with that.

I don't understand how that makes the Elemental version more resistant than the Spell version, per your other post? Or did I misread that?
It isn't the Elemental vs Spell standpoint, its the Gift -> Curse standpoint.

Terminate and Eviscerate can be solved by healing, First Aid, and more. Damage from Celestial Wands can be solved the same way. Death, on the other hand, cannot. I guess I don't agree it is even.
Death can with the same charge-output from your proposed relic. ;)
The "nice" thing, when looking at Earth as a balanced school (discarding Corrupt for the discussion, I still don't like it) is that it can undo what it does. Currently, with Life and Death being inverses of one another, its balanced. With Life/Corrupt/Death being options, it would be more balanced than the actual spell selections themselves. I feel like, if Destroy Undead were buffed (or resistance/"type" categorization against it were reconfigured), that would continue to be the case.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I don't think it's the skill or spell that's good or bad, but how you use them. When I was HoP, OR has 17 resurrections in one weekend, 13 the event before, 8 the one before that...and people kept coming back. Things tapered off after that a fair bit, I think that was the players being more careful than anything else.
I should have clarified. I like Destruction over Death because Destruction allows the rest of the team to be more effective against the target, and it doesn't KO the target, it just makes them hurt more. So everyone still gets to participate in the fight.

Death just takes the target out of the fight. And sure, that's part of the game, but if I had to choose between a KO and a strong debuff, I'm picking the debuff everytime, but that's just my playstyle.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
So, yeah. Celestial, vancian memorization plus wands. Earth, scrap relics, flex casting for healing/chaos spells.

Just to get this thread back on track...
To keep this on track, <insert "ugh" face at the mention of flex casting for earth casters, because Inaryn and I have our lines in the sand on this one!>.
Wasn't it called cast on the fly? I miss that. Would be great and the person that got that cluch awaken and won the battle wouldn't be saying, "that could have been healing"
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Wasn't it called cast on the fly? I miss that. Would be great and the person that got that cluch awaken and won the battle wouldn't be saying, "that could have been healing"
Yeah, but that dude who tosses out a Paralysis? "That could have been a Purify, bro."

Wait, that's our current system. :|
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Regarding Death on a Relic; I am definitely not advocating for something that I genuinely believe is OP as heck and has zero chance of seeing reality. Even if the Relics above as proposed are still not "equitable" to wands (and man, I don't think that's true at all), I feel that this is something that "feels" like we could make a good argument for.

Deaths on a Relic? No, I don't think we can.
 

Alavatar

Baron
It isn't the Elemental vs Spell standpoint, its the Gift -> Curse standpoint.
Ok ... other than Casters with their Cloaks, no other PC will have access to Curse-specific defenses in 2.0 (since all those old Cloaks/Banes Curse/Gift will be going away). And Mettle cannot be used against Death. So I am still not following the thought process that Death will be resisted more.

Death can with the same charge-output from your proposed relic. ;)
The "nice" thing, when looking at Earth as a balanced school (discarding Corrupt for the discussion, I still don't like it) is that it can undo what it does. Currently, with Life and Death being inverses of one another, its balanced. With Life/Corrupt/Death being options, it would be more balanced than the actual spell selections themselves. I feel like, if Destroy Undead were buffed (or resistance/"type" categorization against it were reconfigured), that would continue to be the case.
The Life from Life Relic can counter a Death, but it is 1 of 2 in the game that could counter Death (the other being Spell Life). Death and Corrupt are the only two effects in the game that can only be solved by a single effect (Life) AND if not solved will lead to resurrection. All other abilities and effects in the game can be resolved with multiple other effects and abilities, and do not guarantee resurrection if unresolved.

Assuming Body falls in the 2.0 Monster Database, I am not sure Destroy Undead would need much, if any, buffing. But I have little experience with that spell ...
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Ok ... other than Casters with their Cloaks, no other PC will have access to Curse-specific defenses in 2.0 (since all those old Cloaks/Banes Curse/Gift will be going away). And Mettle cannot be used against Death. So I am still not following the thought process that Death will be resisted more.
Selunari.
 
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