Corrupt - Is this ready for use?

Is the version of Corrupt presented in 0.9 balanced and prepared for use?


  • Total voters
    61
  • Poll closed .

Saephis

Squire
Happy Tuesday, Play(test)ers!

Today, I'm asking you if you feel that the current iteration of Corrupt presented in the 0.9 Rule-set is clear on its use, and appropriate for play in its current placement within system.

As a reminder for this ninth level spell:

Corrupt: This spell will slay a living target and cause them to immediately become a Greater Undead under absolute control of the caster. They retain the same intelligence and knowledge as the original creature, but operate without any memory of their living state. They have an innate understanding of their own abilities and items and may utilize any weapons or armor available to the creature as well as claws. The creature's visual appearance does not immediately change on receipt of this spell.

The character gains all Undead immunities and vulnerabilities and is returned to full Body Points. The player (not the character) has the choice to use or not use per-day skills and spells while under the effect of Corrupt, and will use magic items based on the orders they are given.

If cast upon a Dead body which contains a spirit, the target will immediately arise as Undead as per above.

If the creature is reduced to zero Body Points, or the spell duration expires, then the body and the spirit return to the condition they would have been in had the Corrupt not affected them. This means that if during the five minute Death Countdown the creature is reduced to 0 Body Points and then given a Life spell, they will reawaken alive but with no knowledge of their time spent as Undead.

The ten minute spell duration may not be extended by any means, even by Formal Magic.
This is part of the Necromancy family of effects, with the below text including its reference under the Effect Changes header:

Necromancy: Existing Necromancy effects and spells were consolidated down into a simple spell at every Earth spell level which will allow the caster to manifest the chosen type (Healing or Chaos) at an amount appropriate to the spell level. Disease was updated to prevent all healing for 10 minutes as an Earth 4 spell (and Slow was added to Binding). Corrupt was added as an effect which instantly slays a living target and raises them as a Greater Undead under control of the caster as the new reverse of the Life spell. Other Necromancy effects had some additional minor changes for ease of use (such as Wither removing the functionality of all limbs, not just one at a time). Finally, with the addition of a Cure / Cause Wounds spell at every level, the Help / Harm Undead spells were removed.
With the below spell incantation:

Necromancy:
I Call Chaos [to Corrupt You|to Cause # Wounds|for a Chaos Blade|to Control Undead|to Desecrate you|to Create Undead|to Drain you|to Wither you|to Disease you|for a Lesser Chaos Storm|for a Chaos Storm]
As with previous polls, I'm limiting this to Yes/No/Indifferent to allow those who don't have interest in full discussion on the forums to have their opinion shown, while encouraging discussion for those that want to.
 

Muir

Fighter
No. This is the second effective ensure resurrection effect in the new rules. That's what 'screw you go res' formal effects like Shatter Spirit or Obliterate are for, not battle magic.

It also has writing issues. "They retain the same intelligence and knowledge as the original creature, but operate without any memory of their living state. " This is a flat paradox. Edit: To clarify, I assume this should read 'the same intelligence and game skills' not knowledge, but the text is unclear.

Further clarification is also needed as to how this works with Rebirth, as if the spell ends and "the body and the spirit return to the condition they would have been in had the Corrupt not affected them" then the character is Dead, yet well outside of the point that a Rebirth or Regen would go off as they passed that while Greater Undead.
 
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Ruki

Scholar
I'mma preface this and say: I love the idea behind the corrupt spell. It's exciting and scary, which this game needs more of.

If they are a greater undead, then can still use game abilities and spells, right? Corrupt a person who can cast Life. Now that person can throw out Corrupt. And it will just snowball out of control and lead to a TPK.

It should be easier to reverse (simply using life, for example).
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
I voted "No."

My primary concern with Corrupt is that, in a system designed to simplify things, so many exceptions have to be added in order to attempt to "balance" this spell that it's ending up most of a page. What you end up with with Corrupt is not a Greater Undead (which don't have any restrictions on memory, and which can only be cured with the Gift of Life ritual, which is why they're supposed to take a ritual to create), you end up with a sort of Medium Undead, meant to make the results of the spell less harsh by removing the worst teeth of an Insta-Create Greater Undead.

Do I think it should be an Insta-Create Greater Undead? No. Those are expensive and difficult to fix, and I dislike that effect when it shows up on the battlefield.

The spell description also doesn't mention the qualities of the creature that the necromancer has created, only that it has "the usual immunities and weaknesses" (paraphrase), nor does it mention the necromancer's responsibility of having a monster card to make sure even new players will know what to do if they get hit with this (a lot of information to receive all at once, and again, counter to the ostensible simplifying mission).

Its ability to cascade (get yourself an Earth scholar with ninth-level spells and you can get an undead army) also makes it a potential town-wiper if used intelligently, especially if all the Earth scholars are the resurrectionists, as we tend to be.

As an alternative, I like Life and Death as reversible the way they are. Undeath is not the opposite of Life. Death is.
 

Graham Wolsey

Scholar
Denver Staff
Marshal
I voted yes because I *mostly* like this spell, but I have concern about a lack of visual change. I think its critical if other PCs encounter someone that has been Corrupted that they are able to determine that this person is undead from looking at them for balance and tension reasons.

I love that Necromancy is getting a big buff and is proposed to be powerful in the new system.
 

Cedric

Rogue
Marshal
I love the idea behind it but voted no, I think slight tweaks (like what Graham suggested) are necessary. But in general, love the spell. It's very close.
 

Ruki

Scholar
I voted yes because I *mostly* like this spell, but I have concern about a lack of visual change. I think its critical if other PCs encounter someone that has been Corrupted that they are able to determine that this person is undead from looking at them for balance and tension reasons.

I love that Necromancy is getting a big buff and is proposed to be powerful in the new system.[/QUOTE]
As am I! It incentivises earth casters to take the risk at casting necromancy, and makes necromancer NPCs that much bigger and scarier
 
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Muir

Fighter
For comparison, here is one of the current Transform to Greater Undead rituals :

Transform to < Greater Undead Corporeal>
Aspect: Necromantic Difficulty: 7 Catalyst Required: Yes
NPC Only Ritual: No Role Play Only: No Scroll Type: Spirit
Casting Time: 30 Minutes Duration: One Year May Be Extended: Yes

The ritual caster must spend 30 minutes in the casting of this ritual. If cast without a Curse of Undeath, this ritual will last one year or until the target is killed, whichever comes first. If cast with a Curse of Undeath, this ritual will last until the target’s Curse of Undeath expires or is destroyed or until they permanently die, whichever comes first. This is a Necromantic Aspect ritual. This Ritual may be extended.

This ritual transforms a person, if that person has a spirit, into a <insert type> one of the variety of <Greater Undead Corporeal> in existence. The undead is recognizable as the living being it had been. The undead created will have all the physical abilities typical to <type> and will have the skills of the person this ritual was cast upon. This ritual does not give the caster any control over the target of the ritual or over any of the undead that are currently under the control of the target of the ritual at the time of casting. If the Curse of Undeath ritual preceded the casting of this ritual immediately within the same batch of rituals, then the spirit will resurrect at the spirit bottle as a <insert type>. If a Gift of Life is later cast on the spirit bottle, which has an active Curse of Undeath, it negates the Curse of Undeath.

If a Curse of Undeath ritual did not precede the casting of this ritual, a Destroy Magic (Earth) upon the spirit will cause a death to the spirit causing it to seek resurrection and it will resurrect as the race it was prior to the casting of the transform to Greater Undead Corporeal as <Greater Undead Corporeal> is not considered a race. If the undead body is killed the person’s spirit will be weakened and they must seek resurrection, they will resurrect as the race it was prior to the casting of the transform to <Greater Undead Corporeal>. Without a Curse of Undeath, a Gift of Life ritual upon the spirit will revert the person to their race prior to the casting of the Transform to <Greater Undead Corporeal> without the spirit suffering a death.

When the ritual expires either at the end of its one year or at the expiration of a Curse of Undeath, the spirit will suffer a death and must seek resurrection as the race prior to the casting of the Transform to <Greater Undead Corporeal>.

The following are valid undead types for the Transform to <Greater Undead Corporeal>:

Death Lord Mage, Base Difficulty, Difficulty 7, Catalyst + 4 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: None
Death Lord Thief, Base Difficulty, Difficulty 7, Catalyst + 4 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: None
Death Lord Warrior, Base Difficulty, Difficulty 7, Catalyst + 4 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: None
Death Lord, Wizard*, +3 To Difficulty, Difficulty 10, Catalyst + 5 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: Death Lord Mage
Death Lord, Rogue*, +3 To Difficulty, Difficulty 10, Catalyst + 5 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: Death Lord Thief
Death Lord, Knight*, +3 To Difficulty, Difficulty 10, Catalyst + 5 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: Death Lord Warrior
Mummy King, +4 To Difficulty, Difficulty 11, Catalyst + 6 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: None
Ghoul Lord, +5 To Difficulty, Difficulty 12, Catalyst + 7 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: None
Kennel Creep, +6 To Difficulty, Difficulty 13, Catalyst + 8 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: None
Dread Lord, Sorcerer*, +7 To Difficulty, Difficulty 14, Catalyst + 9 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: Death Lord, Wizard
Dread Lord, Preceptor*, +7 To Difficulty, Difficulty 14, Catalyst + 9 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: Death Lord, Rogue
Dread Lord, Highwayman*, +7 To Difficulty, Difficulty 14, Catalyst + 9 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: Death Lord, Knight
Eternal Emperor*, +10 To Difficulty, Difficulty 17, Catalyst + 12 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: Mummy King
Barrow Lord*, +10 To Difficulty, Difficulty 17, Catalyst + 12 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: Ghoul Lord
Huntsman*, +10 To Difficulty, Difficulty 17, Catalyst + 12 Reagents, Prerequisite Undead: Kennel Creep

Note: Certain undead types require the prerequisite ritual to be cast before a greater form of undead is attempted. For example one must transform to Ghoul Lord before they transform to Barrow Lord. If the additional ritual is cast and the prior form possesses the Curse of Undeath upon them as well, the Curse of Undead continues onto the new Transform ritual. Undead with a prerequisite undead form is marked with an Asterisk (*) in the table above.

OOG:
Be forewarned that the casting of this ritual upon a character will cause that character to become Plot controlled for the duration of this ritual.
Transforming your Character into an Undead creature is illegal In Game for all Alliance Chapters. Please be aware of the information regarding this in the Alliance Rule Book. Transforming your character into an Undead will result in an In Game action being taken by your local Plot Team.

It is advised that the PC wishing to use this ritual discuss the matter with staff by bringing it to the attention of Alliance prior to the event it is cast at. Monster Desk must supply a stat card at each event, if the stats of the < undead> change the new card must be used regardless of the stats when originally created. Race prior to transform to <Greater Undead Corporeal> means the race if no rituals that are not irrevocable are considered. In other words the race indicated in the Alliance character database for that character.

Required Components: 4 This ritual requires a catalyst and 4 reagents as listed on the scroll. Any additional reagents required by the ritual should be the same as listed on the scroll.

Spellcrafting: This ritual may NOT be spellcrafted.
Note that it takes half an hour, is not spellcraftable, requires a catalyst, does not put the target under the control of the caster, and specifies and limits what types of Greater Undead the target may be turned into.
 

Saephis

Squire
I like Corrupt, conceptually. Necromancy has gone a long time being almost laughable as a threat -- usually reliant on large-scale use of formal magic creations, NPC-only creature types, and "<Big Number> Elemental Chaos" to have PCs respond with anything more than "Oh, send out the kids, they'll handle that".

That said, as presented I believe Corrupt will be the source of many full party wipes, resulting in egregious PC resurrections and final deaths.

I would like to see Corrupt move to a high-cost High Magic effect that 'Corrupts' the Life/Death spell (Yes, I'd prefer to see these stay together, details/poll on a day that isn't today).

Changing this to a non-Greater Undead would resolve issues/double-standards on issuing monster cards to players who become Greater Undead, as well as leave the Greater Vs Lesser discussion "clean", without the aforementioned double standards and contradictions inherent in attaching this spell to battle-cast availability.
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
The cascading effects will also look different in games where your friends have, say nine columns, as opposed to games where your friends tend to have three or four ninth-level spells. So that's something to keep in mind when picturing doomsday scenarios. It's much more likely to cause serious (in-game) problems for a mixed-level campaign.
 

KyleSchmelz

Fighter
Further clarification is also needed as to how this works with Rebirth.
Same as Create Undead. If your Rebirth pops, you take a Life spell and call "No Effect" - that said, "the caster always has the option to resurrect as normal and forgo using this High Magic ability in order to save it for a later time."

No. This is the second effective ensure resurrection effect in the new rules. That's what 'screw you go res' formal effects like Shatter Spirit or Obliterate are for, not battle magic.
Not exactly the same as Create Undead, but it's pretty close. Create Undead takes an extra step but it can be just as nasty if done right. "Magic Death, Magic Create Undead, walk into the woods."

The spell description also doesn't mention the qualities of the creature that the necromancer has created, only that it has "the usual immunities and weaknesses" (paraphrase), nor does it mention the necromancer's responsibility of having a monster card to make sure even new players will know what to do if they get hit with this (a lot of information to receive all at once, and again, counter to the ostensible simplifying mission)
Same as Create Undead. Create Undead grants those same immunities and weaknesses and doesn't require a monster card.

I have concern about a lack of visual change. I think its critical if other PCs encounter someone that has been Corrupted that they are able to determine that this person is undead from looking at them for balance and tension reasons.
Same as Create Undead. There's no visible change. I understand this is a much nastier effect, so maybe it's warranted, but since we can't reasonably expect everyone to have an Undead mask on them at all times, I'd rather not have any OOG non-visible, IG "visible" change for a 5 minute effect.

---

I generally like this effect but I think it needs some tweaks. Just for the sake of consistency with I don't think the Corrupted character should be considered to be Greater Undead - Lesser Undead typically aren't all that intelligent and typically don't have a lot of PC skills, but I don't remember that being a hard, fast rule anywhere. The "intelligence and knowledge" part needs to be clarified. I think both Corrupt and Create Undead should be changed so that a Life spell will end the effect and bring the person back at 1 Body (which would also solve the Rebirth problem), but I'm not 100% set on that one.
 

Saephis

Squire
I voted yes because I *mostly* like this spell, but I have concern about a lack of visual change.
I generally like this effect but I think it needs some tweaks.
This sounds an awful lot like "Not as currently written" rather than 'Yes'. :)

Today, I'm asking you if you feel that the current iteration of Corrupt presented in the 0.9 Rule-set is clear on its use, and appropriate for play in its current placement within system.
 

KyleSchmelz

Fighter
I voted Yes because I feel like it is usable in its current state. I think it could easily be made better, more clear, etc.
 
Eh. Needs some mild editing work / clarification stills means "ready for prime time" to me. Based on the clear intent of the spell, I think it is ready to be implemented in its current state, even if a mechanics wonk needs to clarify a few bits (about half the rules in the book could use a little clarity here or there).

-MS
 

Shades

Newbie
I am worried about the possibility of Corrupting (and to a lesser extent the new charm) people who are capable of casting corrupt and it leading to TPKs. I think that corrupt should be a large part of the next playtests and we should find out just how easy this is to do. To me it seems possible to TPK with a single NPC corrupt spell, which seems to me to make it too strong.
 

Avaran

Baron
<sarcasm> Can't wait to see an NPC with this as their weapon carrier. </sarcasm>

I would like to see Corrupt move to a high-cost High Magic effect that 'Corrupts' the Life/Death spell (Yes, I'd prefer to see these stay together, details/poll on a day that isn't today).
I like this idea and would prefer it to the current iteration.

That said, if/when this starts coming out, I may just walk off the field cause I don't want to deal with it. Too easy to apply/land, too hard to fix relative to its ease of application.
 

Graham Wolsey

Scholar
Denver Staff
Marshal
Same as Create Undead. There's no visible change. I understand this is a much nastier effect, so maybe it's warranted, but since we can't reasonably expect everyone to have an Undead mask on them at all times, I'd rather not have any OOG non-visible, IG "visible" change for a 5 minutes.
In the 7th level version asking someone "Are you Undead?" Was always sufficient to clarify. This version where the target retains intelligence it will never clarify that.

Are you undead?

"No, of course not, lets go kill the necromancer."

*Terminate former ally*

This is not a fun play experience for anyone.


We ask people to carry around Ws to use a Ward spell, a circle rep for circle of power, and a lot of packets for storm spells. Carrying a mask is not difficult.

We could also simply allow for an OOG clarifying "what do I see" to clarify the target is undead.
 

Alavatar

Baron
Remember that the choice for a Corrupted Earth Caster to also use Corrupt is an Out-of-game Player decision. They can choose that it wouldn't be fun to use all their Life as Corrupt in those 10 minutes they are Corrupted.

Also, making the Corrupted individual a Greater Undead makes the Destroy Undead do 50 Body instead of destroying them which I suspect was one of the intended effects of making it a Greater Undead.

Personally, I think the potential for a TPK due to a chain of Corrupting is extremely remote. However, my issue with Corrupt is that it lacks definition on several parts of it (immunities/vulnerabilities, what it is healed by, if the res-count is paused, etc.), and there is no visual indication of it being in use (unlike other effects being visible) making it a super charm. The former just needs additional clarification, the latter needs a better understanding of the intent of the spell; if it is intended to be a super charm, then fine.
 

Saephis

Squire
Remember that the choice for a Corrupted Earth Caster to also use Corrupt is an Out-of-game Player decision.
Which is different from the lower-level spell of Charm, a further conflict of power-to-level.
 

Shades

Newbie
Which is different from the lower-level spell of Charm, a further conflict of power-to-level.
And is also really confusing.
"..under absolute control of the caster.
.....
The player (not the character) has the choice to use or not use per-day skills and spells while under the effect of Corrupt, and will use magic items based on the orders they are given."

So I am under absolute control, but I can choose to use spells or not, but I have to use my one shot life items as Corrupt spells if instructed?
 
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