Corrupt - Is this ready for use?

[Avaran]

Player choice? What do you choose when told "serve me to the best of your ability."?

 

[mikestrauss]

And is also really confusing.
"..under absolute control of the caster.
.....
The player (not the character) has the choice to use or not use per-day skills and spells while under the effect of Corrupt, and will use magic items based on the orders they are given."

So I am under absolute control, but I can choose to use spells or not, but I have to use my one shot life items as Corrupt spells if instructed?

As to the last point, no you don't, because spells cast in items aren't reversible. If you have a life item, it is only a life item and not a Corrupt item. As to the more general point, though, assuming one-shot items still exist in 2.0 (I haven't looked into the rules carefully enough to know one way or another), yes you do. Your build purchased skills are fully optional use. Your magic items aren't.

Now, it is worth noting that forcing you to use your magic items is the equivalent of being "steal active," which is a status that is supposed to be pre-approved and signed off on monster cards. So, just because the spell allows it, that doesn't necessarily mean that a particular NPC will be allowed to do it (or think to ask, even if allowed).

-MS

 

[mikestrauss]

Player choice? What do you choose when told "serve me to the best of your ability."?

This is not even close to the first reference to player choice in the rule book. I've seen it on various command/greater command effects over the years, on mental abilities, on gypsy curses (at various points in the past), resurrection, etc. The concept that the player can make decisions that are inconsistent with character decisions, for the purpose of customer service, has been a staple of the game for decades.

-MS

 

[Muir]

Do you think every plot team is going to think that far ahead every time?

Joe-Bob Rogue getting tagged with this and told to go 'defeat those adventurers' as per usual for undead commands is not going to be able to not burn down the 50 gold of alchemy he's got in his pockets just because the card isn't explicitly steal active, per the rule as written .

 

[Avaran]

This is not even close to the first reference to player choice in the rule book. I've seen it on various command/greater command effects over the years, on mental abilities, on gypsy curses (at various points in the past), resurrection, etc. The concept that the player can make decisions that are inconsistent with character decisions, for the purpose of customer service, has been a staple of the game for decades.

I think that Plot needs to think long and hard before putting this effect out, because if Plot or an NPC tells me to kill stuff that is what I am going to do. The results are, as far as I am concerned, ENTIRELY on the person giving the orders.

At some point, you have to trust the plot team, and trust that they've thought through ALL of the outcomes of using an effect.

And, if plot teams are afraid to use it, should it even be in the game in the first place?

 

[Shades]

As to the last point, no you don't, because spells cast in items aren't reversible. If you have a life item, it is only a life item and not a Corrupt item. As to the more general point, though, assuming one-shot items still exist in 2.0 (I haven't looked into the rules carefully enough to know one way or another), yes you do. Your build purchased skills are fully optional use. Your magic items aren't.
-MS

Per the ARB 2.0 v09.f
"Enchant - When a reversible spell is activated out of an Enchant, either version may be activated no matter which version was put into the Enchant (e.g. a Life spell put into an Enchant may be activated as either a Life or Corrupt)."
Do they have to explicitly have to instruct me to use my magic items/alchemy/scroll?
As it stands, we have Corrupt, Create Undead, Charm (and Vampire Charm), Berserk, and Enslavement as ways to make you attack your own side, and they all function differently. This seems to go directly against the intentions of 2.0 to simplify effects.

 

[Saephis]

As @Shades noted above RE: Reverseable Activations, as well as the below RE: Charm Player Vs Character Choice:

- Command: After several years of text updates and clarifications to make the intent clear and remove loopholes, Charm is updated to state that the specific commands which the ARB 1.2 Dominate can be used for may not be refused by the subject of a Charm. This makes Dominate duplicative and results in its removal. Finally, Command effects no longer override each other. This restores the original intent of spells like Shun (which are currently used as a substitute for Awaken).

The reasons, in my mind, mount more and more on why Corrupt, as written (Details, positioning, etc.), is not conducive to play and will, overall, result in extreme player dissatisfaction.

Edit (For inclusion of 1.2 Dominate Text):

This effect makes the victim subject to specific commands of the person who administered the effect. For the elixir, it would be the person who administered the elixir, which would include placing it within food or drink, even if that person is not in view at the time.

The target of a Dominate will not attack the person who administered the Dominate while it is in effect. The administrator can give the target multiple commands within the ten minute period, but the victim will only follow the last one given.

While following these commands the target is in a trance and performs the last order until that order has been completed. Afterward the target will stand and await the next order.

After ten minutes (or after the effect is countered), the victim comes out of the trance and acts as normal, and has full knowledge that he or she was dominated and what was done during that time.

While dominated, the victim must perform actions to the best of his or her ability and knowledge, including the use of spells and skills. The victim does not have the ability to pick and choose less effective abilities to use,nor may they choose to not perform certain commands due to their personality or race. For example, if the victim knows that the person who Dominated them is undead, and that person commands the victim to heal them, they will not only cast necromancy on that person but will not be able to choose to use less powerful spells if they have more powerful ones available that are needed. Similarly, if a Flame Elemental Dominated someone, and that character knew that Flame Elementals are healed by Flame, they would do their best to use Flame to heal the Elemental if commanded.

The victim can defend themselves from any attackers, but if the caster attacks the victim the Dominate effect ends.

This effect can be removed by an Awaken, a Break Command, a Dispel, or a Purify. Note as well that only one Command effect may be active on the victim at any one time. The most recent Command effect takes precedence. This spell is not strong enough to override any Greater Command effect such as Enslavement.

The death of the administrator will not necessarily end the Dominate. For instance, Darlissa is Dominated to Vorin who commands her to heal him. She stands behind him and throws healing into him as he needs it in battle. Vorin is killed by Rendal, and Darlissa immediately throws a Life spell at Vorin and then heals him up. Vorin’s death did not stop the Domination.

This spell only works on creatures that have a mind as defined by the game. Many creatures (such as lesser undead, golems or insects) do not have a mind that can be affected by this effect. The only valid commands that a caster can give a target while they are dominated are listed below. Note that the wording of a command does not need to exactly match the following but it should be similar enough to it so that the target can understand what is meant.

Defend me: The target must protect the caster from all attacks to the best of their ability, even if it requires using spells and magic items. During this time, the target will not attack anyone who is not attacking them or the caster.

Follow me: The target must follow the caster. The target will not attack anyone who is not attacking them.

Give your to me: The target must give the named item to the caster.

Heal me: The target must make every attempt to heal or Life the caster. During this time the target will not attack anyone and will do everything possible, including fighting their allies, to prevent the healing from being stopped.

Return to normal: This command ends the Dominate effect.

 

[Tantarus]

I think one of my biggest issue with corrupt is that you are not visibly undead. It will result in many resses that could have been easily fixed. And its pvp applications are insane, or if you have a really cruel plot.

Consider these:

"X person needs a life spell" "I got it!" Casts corrupt over life, tells person act normal, ask for no healing. Person dusts randomly 10 mins later.

Hit someone with a corrupt, "Run west" Enjoy the res.

Corrupt someone. Act normal, Go assault Noble Z while calling him an oppressor of the people. Person looks normal, attacks noble, could easily go undetected and ruins the character IG rep.

Corrupt person, Go into your warded cabin and bring out any formal scrolls, components, coin, or chests.

Why does corrupt kill a living thing and turn it undead but a life hitting a corrupt does nothing? They are Reverse of each other, why not have life pop a corrupt right back to alive?

People are really missing the biggest issue with this spell, It is a Full Heal. The first in the game. NPCs can have 1000s of body. And now can be full healed repeatedly by nercomancers. Sit back and think about how powerful this spell really can be in the hands of someone wanted to really abuse it.

 

[Avaran]

People are really missing the biggest issue with this spell, It is a Full Heal. The first in the game. NPCs can have 1000s of body. And now can be full healed repeatedly by nercomancers. Sit back and think about how powerful this spell really can be in the hands of someone wanted to really abuse it.

Not abuse. Obviously working as intended. "Full heal" didn't write itself. =P

 

[PirateFox]

I think one of my biggest issue with corrupt is that you are not visibly undead. It will result in many resses that could have been easily fixed. And its pvp applications are insane, or if you have a really cruel plot.

Consider these:

"X person needs a life spell" "I got it!" Casts corrupt over life, tells person act normal, ask for no healing. Person dusts randomly 10 mins later.

Hit someone with a corrupt, "Run west" Enjoy the res.

Corrupt someone. Act normal, Go assault Noble Z while calling him an oppressor of the people. Person looks normal, attacks noble, could easily go undetected and ruins the character IG rep.

Corrupt person, Go into your warded cabin and bring out any formal scrolls, components, coin, or chests.

Why does corrupt kill a living thing and turn it undead but a life hitting a corrupt does nothing? They are reserves of each other, why not have life pop a corrupt right back to alive?

People are really missing the biggest issue with this spell, It is a Full Heal. The first in the game. NPCs can have 1000s of body. And now can be full healed repeatedly by nercomancers. Sit back and think about how powerful this spell really can be in the hands of someone wanted to really abuse it.

You hit upon my main concern here. My version of your scenario was, given that they are a greater undead and can thus talk, "Corrupt, go back to the tavern, brood in the corner, and tell people you're fine and not to touch you. Two seconds before you dust, scream, 'goodbye cruel world'."

Knowing that the only way to handle this is for every single...and I mean EVERY...person to be checked by a healer, that means all mods need to end with a line-up and healing-arts checks. That's...annoying at best. Most of my concerns vanish by making it a visible effect.

 

[Tantarus]

I just think this spell is not well thought out on the damage it could do. I like Necromancy being powerful but this is a bit too pushed, imo.

I get that people cant put on make up or a mask for a 10 min spell hence the look normal, but yeah They should just be able to tell people around them, visibly undead.

 

[Avaran]

It also has writing issues. "They retain the same intelligence and knowledge as the original creature, but operate without any memory of their living state. " This is a flat paradox. Edit: To clarify, I assume this should read 'the same intelligence and game skills' not knowledge, but the text is unclear.

I think this wording is meant to prevent, for example, being able to order a target to go back to their cabin and loot all their best stuff and bring it back to the caster; or to prevent any use of "truth spell" issues.

 

[Saephis]

People are really missing the biggest issue with this spell, It is a Full Heal. The first in the game. NPCs can have 1000s of body. And now can be full healed repeatedly by nercomancers. Sit back and think about how powerful this spell really can be in the hands of someone wanted to really abuse it.

Well, no. There's also the (largely NPC) ability of Renew. Which also refreshes your skills, I believe.

 

[mikestrauss]

Per the ARB 2.0 v09.f
"Enchant - When a reversible spell is activated out of an Enchant, either version may be activated no matter which version was put into the Enchant (e.g. a Life spell put into an Enchant may be activated as either a Life or Corrupt)."

My bad. I should have expected 2.0 to change the enchant rules I guess.

-MS

 

[Tantarus]

Well, no. There's also the (largely NPC) ability of Renew. Which also refreshes your skills, I believe.

Sure but an npc might have one of those for themselves, this is a 9th spell which a big bad could have 10+ of for their minions or self in a pinch.

 

[Saephis]

Sure but an npc might have one of those for themselves, this is a 9th spell which a big bad could have 10+ of for their minions or self in a pinch.

Sure, I guess my point is, from that standpoint, a Plot team can do anything they feel like for an NPC, including Revive-Renew-At-Will. Can this contribute to trolling by a nefarious PC? Sure, why not. But unless they have access to the NPC(s)-in-question every 4 minutes 58 seconds, that's killed just in time, I don't think this is the best standpoint of issue to be had.

 

[EC-JP]

I may need to go back to notes, but one of the things I thought the owners asked to be tested was a change to both Create Undead and Corrupt to pause counts upon effect, including death/resurrection/etc. That appears to be the intent of the "restore to the status prior to the spell" line.

If that is accurate, does that change people's opinions?

 

[Saephis]

I may need to go back to notes, but one of the things I thought the owners asked to be tested was a change to both Create Undead and Corrupt to pause counts upon effect, including death/resurrection/etc. That appears to be the intent of the "restore to the status prior to the spell" line.

If that is accurate, does that change people's opinions?

Not for me, no. The entire write-up for Corrupt is rife with inconsistencies and double-standards against other spells, effects, and abilities. The inclusion of the text...

This means that if during the five minute Death Countdown the creature is reduced to 0 Body Points and then given a Life spell, they will reawaken alive but with no knowledge of their time spent as Undead.

...implies that the death counter is still running.

 

[mikestrauss]

I want to quote a line from Create Undead, a spell that already exists in our game and has existed for quite some time:

"
The creature’s visual appearance does not
change immediately, but the victim will move
slowly, shambling along, as a zombie should."

The key words are "The creature's visual appearance does not change immediately..." That is identical to the text of corrupt.

The full heal scenario to bring back an ally is an interesting point. But most of the "ensure res" scenarios that have been mentioned already exist by using Death / Killing Blow plus Create Undead. And, honestly, if a NPC has been permitted to "ensure res" by a plot member (keeping in mind that this must be approved in advance), there are plenty of options already available in game other than Corrupt that already make this pretty easy.

-MS

 

[Avaran]

I may need to go back to notes, but one of the things I thought the owners asked to be tested was a change to both Create Undead and Corrupt to pause counts upon effect, including death/resurrection/etc. That appears to be the intent of the "restore to the status prior to the spell" line.

It would be useful if there was language included to cover what happens when multiple Corrupt effects are taken on a single target. Can it be re-cast on a current victim? (It says it can be cast on a Dead body, so I would conclude yes.) If so, does the 10 minute timer reset? Does it also give a full heal with each subsequent casting? In other words, could bad guy cast this on themselves, get hit a lot, then cast another on themselves for a full heal?