Corrupt - Is this ready for use?

Is the version of Corrupt presented in 0.9 balanced and prepared for use?


  • Total voters
    61
  • Poll closed .

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
To answer some questions that have been raised:

You can be Dead, with a death timer going. You can be Undead, with a death timer going.

If you are Undead, you are not affected by things that specifically work on Dead bodies (Create Undead, Life, Corrupt) (unless otherwise specified of course, local Plot teams can say "yo, Life works on this here Undead-er like thus...").

Undead is LITERALLY "not dead" :p

-Bryan
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal

Muir

Fighter
Just as a note, if you cast Corrupt on yourself, while you were alive, you would immediately stop doing anything. You are under control of the caster, who now has absolutely no memory of the caster's life. As such, the caster can't give you orders. You have absolutely no motivations or concept of what is happening. I guess it is possible you might wander off randomly, but you certainly wouldn't continue trying to engage in whatever evil you were trying to engage in before.

-MS
Yeah, while I don't necessarily agree with this statement, this is a failure mode that needs to be defined as well. Caster touchcasts and accepts a Corrupt. What do they do? How does this differ if one is Reflected? Or Baned?

If the answer is 'behave in a free-willed manner', this spell is effectively a last-ditch buff for every necromancer around.
 
I will answer everyone's question at the same time. Here is the key text (copied from the original post):

"They retain the same intelligence and knowledge as the original creature, but operate without any memory of their living state."

They operate without any memory of their living state. They do not remember their life in any way, except for knowledge of their skills. Effectively, casting Corrupt on yourself is like gaining movie amnesia. You know that those green fellows are called orcs and the thing in your hand is called a sword, but you don't know why you are on a field in the middle of night surrounded by people and undead wielding swords and throwing spells. You wouldn't remember who your friends or enemies were (though you would probably quickly identify anyone trying to kill you as an enemy) and wouldn't remember any plans you had made before the Corrupt spell.

It may turn you into a free-willed greater undead (for a few minutes), but without any direction from memories, that free will is pretty much useless.

-MS
 
I am told undead is not a living or dead state, making someone currently corrupted not a legal target for corrupt.

Which makes sense. I just didnt realize Undead was not considered Dead. I guess the Un part should have been a clue.
The real key here is how necromancy interacts with undead. When a necromancy spells affects an undead, the effect is equivalent to the healing effect if it hit a living person. Thus, if you hit an undead with Drain, all negative effects are removed from them (like Restore). If you hit an undead with wither, any missing limbs are returned. Following that logic, if you hit an undead with Corrupt, it is equivalent to hitting a normal person with a Life spell. However, a Life spell does nothing to a living person (no effect) because they aren't dead. Thus, Corrupt does nothing when it hits an undead.

-MS
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
This is my issue.."If the creature is reduced to zero Body Points, or the spell duration expires, then the body and the spirit return to the condition they would have been in had the Corrupt not affected them."
So I'm alive at say 51 body left, I get hit with a corrupt. I am reduced to zero 2 minutes in. Now the description says that I return to my livng state at 51 body (that was the condition I was in had the spell not effected me, like say with a spell shield) Now im 99% sure this is untrue as arc has stated that your death count continues. So what is exactly meant by "return to the state had the spell not affected them"?
 
Good question. The only two possible interpretations of that are:

1) Return to the same physical state.
or
2) Return to the same effects state.

If it is the first case, then all of the effects on you that disappear with death are gone (went away when you died), but effects that remain until resurrection (like enslavement or limbs that have been cut off) are in the same state they were when you died.

If it is the second case, yep, you still have your spell shield (if you somehow got hit with a Corrupt effect that ignored your spell shield) or more likely your poison shield. You are also still silenced and confined if you under those effects when hit by Corrupt.

I guess it is possible that the writers simply intended for only negative effects to remain after returning from Corrupt, but the language doesn't support that as currently written.


Best guess, with nothing else to work on, I'd say the intended result is #1 and you are dead. I think the comment about "as if the Corrupt had not affected you" is a badly worded way of saying "as if you had died, but the raise dead portion of the Corrupt had not affected you." I could even believe that it might be intended that you come back alive, but I'd really want an ARC member or owner to say that outright if that is the case.

-MS
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Its just a huge contradiction. If my death count is to continue (just like create undead does and if ur not playing it this way your playing it wrong) then how could I ever return to the state I was in had it not affected me? I'm alive, had it not affected me or I am dead with 4 minutes left in my count...had the Corrupt not affected me. If its pertaining to say a paralyzed character that is then hit with a Corrupt, the fact that they are dead and need a life spell (due to the Corruption) would remove that effect. I can't see the intent mean that I would be paralyzed after the Corrupt wears off.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Since 7 people (mikestrauss, Vry_Young_Pup, Inaryn, Tevas, KyleSchmelz, MaxIrons and Graham Wolsey) feel that it is prepared for use. Can you answer my question? Well minus mike because he made an attempt but admitted he is guessing, which to me means it isn't prepared for use.
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
Since 7 people (mikestrauss, Vry_Young_Pup, Inaryn, Tevas, KyleSchmelz, MaxIrons and Graham Wolsey) feel that it is prepared for use. Can you answer my question? Well minus mike because he made an attempt but admitted he is guessing, which to me means it isn't prepared for use.
I would change my vote if I could, at this point. During our rounds of playtesting, the only times Corrupt came out were in very clean, clear, unmuddied situations. Given the heavy and thorough breakdowns that have been provided in this thread, I can definitely see multiple potential failure points outside of the favorable environments in which we saw it cast. I do not believe it is ready for live play in its current form.
 

KyleSchmelz

Fighter
Same as Tevas. Corrupt, as I had interpreted it before, works just fine, but I can't just say, "here's how I want it to work. See? It works now." It is not ready for use in its current state.

Personally, here's how I would write it:
Change Create Undead to give the zombie full body, make the effect visible, and pause the death count for the duration of the effect (to commonize the effects as much as possible, hopefully reducing confusion)
Corrupt would instantly kill the target and raise them as an intelligent Lesser Undead at full body and with full access to their PC card, plus standard undead immunities and weaknesses. If cast upon a dead body with a spirit inside, the target will rise as undead as above. For the duration of the spell, the death count will pause where it was (at 0 seconds if the target was living). The target will have full knowledge of their abilities and skills, and will fight intelligently, but will have zero memory of their living self. The target will be inherently hostile to all living creatures other than the caster (angry amnesia). The effect is visible to those who see the target. The target must follow all orders from the caster - the player may choose OOG to conserve resources, but must make a good faith effort to follow orders. If the target is reduced to 0 body or if the duration of the spell ends, the target will return to being Dead and resume their death count.

I know that's not how it is written currently, and I didn't put the sort of attention to detail into that description that I'd want to see in the rulebook, but I feel like those changes would alleviate a lot of the issues with the effect.
 

Shades

Newbie
In an effort to simplify things, I think this spell should functions similarly to some other effect like charm or enslavement. Making it something more like Death + Create Medium Undead + Charm. Then the only clarification needed would be the Undead part, not the following orders part.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Would some one be forced to cast necro to heal someone...or even your self because ordered to while under the affect of Corrupt? As a "player choice" I wouldn't because of the HUGE stigma that gets put on you.
 

Avaran

Baron
Here's my biggest problem with the spell:

It creates a single spell that has multiple effects and yet costs the same as other spells that only produce 1 effect.

So an Earth Scholar pays 5 build (plus all of the pre-reqs and pyramid/column requirements) to get 1 9th level spell slot.

All other spells except Drain which does a Slow + No Game Abilities effect (maybe another?) in 2.0 (pretty sure they got rid of/changed Enflame) give 1 effect when cast. Yes, Earth has reversible spells, but the point is that they choose which singular effect they want when casting.

Corrupt, for 1 spell cast, gives you multiple effects:
Death + Full Heal + (basically) Enslavement + Greater Undead status

The only other place you can get that kind of value is Ritual Magic which produces multiple effect outcomes.

Now, Full Heals have typically only ever been seen in relation to:
Ritual Magic (golems, usually, with Heal to Full by Prison)
The monster ability Revive
Resurrection
--Regeneration Res
--CSS Res
Plot Effects

Enslavement is typically a heavily plot-controlled effect, though is available to PC's via Alchemy.

Greater Undead has only been available via Ritual magic with Catalyst.

I feel the design of the spell is wildly out of budget for what you have to spend to get it.


My other concerns about PC abuse (plot can put heal to full on any card they want, so not really an issue with NPC's) with the full heal with recasts is gone since that isn't doable.
 

Inaryn

Knight
I think it needs some language clean up, but it's otherwise pretty clear what the intent of the spell is.

I wrote something similar as a proposal for a high Magic (with appropriate earth half) a few years ago.

Just like I wrote a proposal for Slow like a decade ago when I was in Seattle. I'm just happy to see ideas I've tried to contribute over the years getting play.
 

Kasuni

Squire
I just don't see corrupt as a worthwhile enhancement to the game. I don't think it adds anything, and I would prefer Life/Death were just maintained as Gift, and Corrupt was nixed entirely.
 

Inaryn

Knight
I think it adds more power to necromancy, which, frankly, needed it. Necromancy isn't scary anymore. And a zombie with 10 body swinging for 2 isn't scary either. But I can fully imagine the sheer terror that it might instill on the field if a character like my earth templar jack-of-all trades was corrupted.

I think that, aside from tweaking the new Disease to allow first aid to still stabilize someone, that it's also a good bump for Necromancy.
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
Same as Tevas. Corrupt, as I had interpreted it before, works just fine, but I can't just say, "here's how I want it to work. See? It works now." It is not ready for use in its current state.

Personally, here's how I would write it:
Change Create Undead to give the zombie full body, make the effect visible, and pause the death count for the duration of the effect (to commonize the effects as much as possible, hopefully reducing confusion)
Corrupt would instantly kill the target and raise them as an intelligent Lesser Undead at full body and with full access to their PC card, plus standard undead immunities and weaknesses. If cast upon a dead body with a spirit inside, the target will rise as undead as above. For the duration of the spell, the death count will pause where it was (at 0 seconds if the target was living). The target will have full knowledge of their abilities and skills, and will fight intelligently, but will have zero memory of their living self. The target will be inherently hostile to all living creatures other than the caster (angry amnesia). The effect is visible to those who see the target. The target must follow all orders from the caster - the player may choose OOG to conserve resources, but must make a good faith effort to follow orders. If the target is reduced to 0 body or if the duration of the spell ends, the target will return to being Dead and resume their death count.

I know that's not how it is written currently, and I didn't put the sort of attention to detail into that description that I'd want to see in the rulebook, but I feel like those changes would alleviate a lot of the issues with the effect.
I think that is the intent. The "places back to its original..." was mostly to ensure that the PCs death timer was set back to whatever it was before the Corrupt hit. We did not want a PC to have to worry about tracking multiple timers, especially their Death timer. For sure we need to clean up the wording on Corrupt.

Removing Gift helped to start to trim down effect groups (it only had the 2 spells) and adding Corrupt gave Necromancy a much needed boost.
 

Saephis

Squire
Removing Gift helped to start to trim down effect groups (it only had the 2 spells) and adding Corrupt gave Necromancy a much needed boost.
Except that it opens up the clarity of "Am I effected by this" being Undead, with a Rebirth going off, as it is now a Healing effect.
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
Well, rebirth only happens at 4:59 of your Death Timer. Corrupt pauses that timer. When Corrupt ends, your Death timer restarts where it was and your Rebirth would go off at 4:59 as it would normally.

I hope that is what you were asking about? I was not 100% sure.
 
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