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Wow... I almost never click on the "general discussion forum" for exactly the reason this discussion is happening in the first place, so I think it should come as no shock that I fully support the suggestions here.

I would generally encourage those who take action about this to take it one step further (or in a different direction as well).

In addition to setting up a system by which the rules in place (good sportsman rules) can be enforced and "punishments" can be doled out as appropriate, I also recommend a set of steps/actions that take a more positive bent.

I recommend that all owners and staffers act as the example and adhere to a basic list of guidelines when posting. Look at the list of guidelines and determine whether or not your post fits within them before actually posting it. Use the "preview" button on every post (at least for a while) and read through what you said, at the very least this gives you an opportunity to correct misspellings and whatnot before you submit your post.

Suggested guidelines:

  • Does this post add to the original purpose of the thread? If not, consider making a new thread.
  • Are you being generally negative or positive in your post?
  • Do your statements/opinions generally reflect what others should expect from your position? Would your peers agree with your posts manner (not necessarily accuracy)?
  • Are you using your position/title to ramrod your post, or is your post supporting the whole reason you gained your position/title?
  • If a new player read your post, would they think you are a jerk and someone to be avoided at game?
  • Do you think you will be moderated for this post?

If you go through this list of guidelines/thoughts during or after you write your post, but before you hit submit, this will likely improve your chances of not posting something others will find offensive or off-topic. I am a huge believer in leading by example and feel that a change of the magnitude of this thread needs to start with the ownership and work it's way down.

If owners/staffers/veteran players adhere to the good sportsman rules and just generally adhere to a good guideline then others will likely follow suit. The ones that don't, can be warned/moderated/harshed on/whatever...

I hope this helps.

~Mark
 

Octaine

Artisan
Seems like this is going way to far....we all are not going to agree on topics I mean heck this IS a discussion board. As long as we are not calling each other a-holes then is it realy a problem? Is it that hard to not read a post or thread? Moderate the rules section and IG section the rest is just frosting.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
So we don't have enough faith and trust in our players? I thought that was the same line of thinking for every thing in our game. Trust your players and trust your plot. "Hey that new style of weapons is going to hurt. Trust your players using them".

I'm a bit confused as to put trust in your players that they don't cheat, but no faith in the fact that the boards aren't being watched.

*Edit: As for the answers to rules w/o copying them from the book...what about all those long time, not in the book, been played for years that way type of things...
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
For every "not in the book" scenario you can bring up I can follow you up with posts where simple questions that ARE available in the rulebook are answered incorrectly.

Having faith in your players only works when they actually do what you have faith in.

Right now our Rules board specifically is and has been a mess. The threads degrade to witty banter that, while humorous, don't get anything accomplished.

The goal of a discussion board should be to contribute, not entertain.

Stephen
 
agreed.

(see once anyone joins the phalanx they get emotionally coerced to agree with anything steve says!) :D
 
Gilwing said:
So we don't have enough faith and trust in our players?
Nope.
Gilwing said:
I'm a bit confused as to put trust in your players that they don't cheat, but no faith in the fact that the boards aren't being watched.
This game is specifically designed in a way that discourages trusting your players (see: The 'tag' system that the entirety of the rules is based on).
Mike V is big on appearing like an 'Alliance' and would like everyone to use this forum, but there are several chapters that maintain their own message boards. One of the primary contributing factors to this is the Rules board. I can't, in good conscience, recommend to our players that they post their rules concerns to the national rules board, so we keep a chapter rules board open for them.
Octaine said:
Seems like this is going way to far....we all are not going to agree on topics I mean heck this IS a discussion board. As long as we are not calling each other a-holes then is it realy a problem? Is it that hard to not read a post or thread?
Yes, it is still a problem. Yes, it is that hard not to read a post or thread. The impetus of this isn't that we're all buddies and sometimes we get out of hand, it's that to an outside observer (read: a new or potential player) we look like a bunch of gibbering idiots when a simple rules question goes on for 5 pages, rather then an Alliance of people who should all be using the same rules.

Gilwing said:
what about all those long time, not in the book, been played for years that way type of things...
If they're not in the book, then they're not rules. I don't care how long it's "been played 'X' way in Chapter Y," even if that chapter is HQ. If it's not in the book, it's not a rule, and anyone claiming otherwise is wrong. (The exception of course being things in the official Addendum and ARC clarifications.) Anything ruled after that is local interpretation, and has no business being on the national rules board.
 
For what its worth Tags can help the players stay organized too. They do have more purpose than JUST trying to catch cheaters. Which I think most people agree they won't do anyways...
 
Oh, sure. But battleboards man, battleboards. I go through logistics and receive more then 100 tags (when playing my main, a highbie caster), but I usually translate it all down to a single 3" x 4" battleboard for personal use. Logistics' time, money, and effort could be spent better then pulling my tags. Honestly, either way, if I accidently cast an extra Dragon's Breath or Spell Shield, it's already too late. If I really wanted to cheat, I've probably got a thousand tags floating around in the bottom of the box with my gear in it that I could get away with it for years before someone caught me with an effect I couldn't produce a tag for (let alone the minimal effort it would take to just print off a sheet of tags from a quick scan of my tag ring after game.) The tag system doesn't eliminate cheating, it just makes it take a little more effort. People either will or they wont, and if they do, they'll probably get caught and thrown out. Most people wont, it really makes the game less fun. (Don't believe me? Play through Diablo 2 with all godly gear and try to tell me it was better that way then the first time through, there's a million and one cheats out for that game.)
 

phedre

Squire
I think that anecdotal stories or examples about the way things are done in certain places isn't *evil* and has a time and place to be shared (especially when new rules come out) because sometimes it helps pinpoint wording that may be more ambiguous than was realized by the writer(s)/editor(s).

It's the "my chapter does it right" attitude that gets in the way, I know I'm guilty of it.
 
obcidian_bandit said:
The tag system doesn't eliminate cheating, it just makes it take a little more effort. People either will or they wont, and if they do, they'll probably get caught and thrown out. Most people wont, it really makes the game less fun.
Making it a "little more work" to cheat can often prevent more cheating (in my humble opinion) than we realize. If one has to actually go to all the work to go to the work to prepare to cheat that takes a significantly more serious mindset than to just "do it on the fly".

I'm not saying I think that the tags rings significantly hinger it, but they do have merits. I've used battle boards to. But to be honest its all what you get used to. And if you mostly do it in your head anyways I find its nearly as easy to get used to just using the frikken tags rings to double check yourself.

Plus for MI's that you can hand back and forth in the middle of game its a lot easier to hand the tags that are left with that item than otherwise. Like I said I think there is probably a better way to do it. I'm not convinced battle boards are better on ALL accounts, definitely on some, but I think there is room for discussion. That's all I'm saying.
 
I'm going to guess that
Gilwing said:
obcidian_bandit said:
Gilwing said:
So we don't have enough faith and trust in our players?
Nope.
This is sad coming from a GM. If this is a joke then its funny...especially coming from a GM.
I'm going to hazard a guess (based on what I know of Matt) that this is both being read way too far into AND is a situation where english just isn't doin the job.

My guess is that Matt was saying that We DO have enough faith in our players to follow the rules within the framework of the system that has been set up, AND that the framework that has been set up regarding rules at an event is built around the idea that a certain amount of trust is given, but not complete trust because at some point the rules allow for/require the inspection of cards and whatnot. If true trust were given then the plot person marshalling my ritual casting wouldn't need to ask for my card. He'd just trust that I have enough levels to cast the ritual and that I know how it all works. In fact, he wouldn't need to be there at all except to write up new tags.

In addition to that, I think he's referring to the fact that trust is irrelevant when it comes to these forums, as you don't need trust or distrust to see what someone has written and know that it is improper for them to have done so, thus warranting moderation on some level.

If I'm wrong on this, I'm sure Matt will correct my statements. In the mean time I am certain that no perceived harm was actually intended.
 

Octaine

Artisan
obcidian_bandit said:
Gilwing said:
So we don't have enough faith and trust in our players?
Nope.
Gilwing said:
I'm a bit confused as to put trust in your players that they don't cheat, but no faith in the fact that the boards aren't being watched.
This game is specifically designed in a way that discourages trusting your players (see: The 'tag' system that the entirety of the rules is based on).
Mike V is big on appearing like an 'Alliance' and would like everyone to use this forum, but there are several chapters that maintain their own message boards. One of the primary contributing factors to this is the Rules board. I can't, in good conscience, recommend to our players that they post their rules concerns to the national rules board, so we keep a chapter rules board open for them.
Octaine said:
Seems like this is going way to far....we all are not going to agree on topics I mean heck this IS a discussion board. As long as we are not calling each other a-holes then is it realy a problem? Is it that hard to not read a post or thread?
Yes, it is still a problem. Yes, it is that hard not to read a post or thread. The impetus of this isn't that we're all buddies and sometimes we get out of hand, it's that to an outside observer (read: a new or potential player) we look like a bunch of gibbering idiots when a simple rules question goes on for 5 pages, rather then an Alliance of people who should all be using the same rules.

Gilwing said:
what about all those long time, not in the book, been played for years that way type of things...
If they're not in the book, then they're not rules. I don't care how long it's "been played 'X' way in Chapter Y," even if that chapter is HQ. If it's not in the book, it's not a rule, and anyone claiming otherwise is wrong. (The exception of course being things in the official Addendum and ARC clarifications.) Anything ruled after that is local interpretation, and has no business being on the national rules board.

Then only allow rule marshals to answer question under the Rules topic .....problem solved

Seems like the past four years have been nothing more than people qq on these boards...guess it finally came to a head.....I would like to add a section called "Dragon Breath" where we can flame each other, seems fair....heck other boards have one.
 

Octaine

Artisan
Robb Graves said:
i would argue that such a section should be called flame storm. :lol:
or flame blast :lol:

or better yet HELLS WRAITH :lol:
 

Talen

Adept
obcidian_bandit said:
This game is specifically designed in a way that discourages trusting your players (see: The 'tag' system that the entirety of the rules is based on).
Mike V is big on appearing like an 'Alliance' and would like everyone to use this forum, but there are several chapters that maintain their own message boards. One of the primary contributing factors to this is the Rules board. I can't, in good conscience, recommend to our players that they post their rules concerns to the national rules board, so we keep a chapter rules board open for them.
And here we see a dangerous flaw opening up. You really, REALLY want folks to get on the same page, you don't write on a dozen different ones. Otherwise, those separations on rules become "The way we do it has to be the right way.", and eventually you get what's happened many times before- splintering. NERO ended up with a lot of "cousins" that way in the LARPing community, and Alliance is one of them- and in turn will do the same thing unless you DO keep those discussions out in the open.

As for tags? Yep, you don't utterly trust your players...because inevitably, there WILL be those players who cheat or simply screw up. I've seen people busted for handing over more tags than their character actually had in skills, using magic items someone else had on them halfway across camp, using skills from their OTHER character by mistake, and so on. LAIRE uses a character card AND tags (though they have a more complex system, period).
 

Chazz

Artisan
It has become apparent to me that certain persons are missing key points of this post.

First, it was stated that the "General Discussion" and "Off Topic" boards should not in fact be moderated. However, looking at the last few replies my stance on that might be well worth reconsidering.

Second, its not just about credibility in terms of the appearance of this board and thus the appearance of the Alliance. Its also about how you the poster chooses to represent the chapter you play and/ or staff at in this public forum and thus the appearance of the Alliance. The later, staff personnel, being even more so important. Here is a few real world examples of that taken from replies within this post. Though I got moderated for doing this last time, it is my sincere hope that its not taken as calling of people out but as trying to shed light on the reality of what you are doing.

--My signature, --Chazz, never includes any positions I hold or have held unless I am replying in some official capacity. I've never wished for one of my moments of inability to control myself to reflect poorly on the fact that I have in fact held/ hold quite a number of them. This may come off as very "holier-than-thou." Honestly, it is.

--Obcidian_bandit, rarely if ever signs his post. It is my hope that its for similar reasons that I keep mine short. He does make, what I consider, some really quality points. However, without at least something to go on I can only assume he is not a GM but just a Black Bandit. Posting anonymously prevents me from visiting the boards he speaks of to compare and see just what he is talking about. Which I would in fact love to do.

--Dave and Mike Balsome, Lehigh Valley LARP Logistics "JOURNEY INTO ADVENTURE" If you two think that ending your posts like this doesn't lead to bad representation of your chapter, you are dead wrong. I know I will certainly reconsider making such a journey if this is the sort of intolerance and name calling that this adventure will lead me to. And I know these guys. They are in fact players who have supported this game since its infancy. Capable of entertaining me better than 90% of anyone I've come across.

Everyone has a vision for this game. Of the visions I've heard not one of them has been, "My 10 friends and I in a backyard." Nor has it been, "I just want to be better than Chapter X." Nay, these visions are always of some grand game with tons of players. Games of smooth and quick transitions between Roleplay, Wave Battles, Modules and more Roleplay because after all those Wave Battles and Modules everyone needs a little downtime. Deep plot and epic fights. Mind bending puzzles and stories of victory. Epically repped monsters and an environment that leads to nothing but the deepest suspension of disbelief.

Here at Alliancelarp.com is the face of that game. Even for the chapters that maintain their own boards. Here is the first thing people get to see when they look into joining such an adventure. And here in your posts are the first things people read when they want to know more. When they want to know who plays.

How you decide to post will decide what they find out.

--Chazz
 

markusdark

Knight
Having worked as a Customer relations person for an MMO - whose main duty was to monitor the boards - I would like to point out a fact that is often thought of as the strangulation of free speech.

Almost all message boards, despite their relatively public availability, are actually considered private property. That is to say that the owner of the board has as much right to censor someone as he would if the same person was spouting something at their household. Just like he has the right to remove someone from membership here, Mike (and whomever he deems fit) also has the right to moderate their posts. Sometimes it helps to have such information about moderation posted in a sticky but it isn't necessary. Conduct yourself in a professional manner, listen to your host or else don't be surprised when you find yourself muzzled here.

But by the same token, you can feel free to go to Twitter, Myspace, Facebook or whatever posting area that you are in charge of and post how you feel about the muzzling.

Now, as for the impact of conducting oneself on the boards, I know of more than one player who is not going to try out the Alliance game in SF or will not be returning because of the way some people are conducting themselves on it. They don't want to deal with whiners and beligerent people - and I don't blame them.
 
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