If you sell it IG should it be stealable?

Sheakhan

Adept
I definitely agree with that sentiment. When I said it was viewed negatively, I meant "it" to mean the act of stealing oog items being sold ig.

My idea of a good time while larping has a huge impact on my views here. In my experience with role-playing games of all stripes, realistic and immersive character interaction is the most entertaining for me. While I understand the concept of reverse metagaming and good sportsmanship, my interpretation of those things differs from what is, at least in these threads, the norm.

Sportsmanship is, to me, an extension of the golden rule. I want to be treated as my character, and I want other characters to respond and deal with me completely in character with little to no compromise.

You're right, competition is not the goal, and I never intended to imply it was. But if your character is competitive, I expect to see that reflected in your in game choices just as I would expect myself to do given the same concept.

When it comes to reverse metagaming I personally hold myself to the standard of only doing so when a player's enjoyment will be cut short. Examples including not perma-deathing them if its not necessary, not violating the rules of the game by way of role-playing choice, and not intentionally making character choices that offend players. Because this is my personal standard I, as a good sport, expect others to do the same for me. Exceptions are numerous. I won't reverse metagame to avoid offending people if they seem likely to take offense to petty things. Deliberately taking things out of context, taking personal offense to ig theft or insult, being upset about a non permanent character death or swindling... I wouldn't expect anyone to be soft on me at the expense of their character, so I would not consider doing the same as good sportsmanship.

Perhaps establishing rules for everything (ig sales included) is overkill, and perhaps unnecessary, but acknowledging that the situation we are currently discussing can be interpreted entirely differently by individuals with different ideas of enjoyment, good sportsmanship, and what constitutes the spirit of the game means acknowledging that the situation at hand could, potentially, be a problem given no black and white policy.

Regardless of policy, I don't believe it is unsportsmanlike to thieve or destroy or hide or resell oog goods sold ig, and in any instances where I find myself participating in such exchanges I will, because I feel it is the right thing to do, mark my items as stealable and return a portion of my profits to the game, as I would expect the same out of anyone else.
 

OrcFighterFTW

Spellsword
There are black and white policies, they have been mentioned several times, including by you. The Good Sport Rule and Spirit of the Rules are not mere suggestions, they are core rules of the game and you can be removed from the game for intentionally violating them. See page 34 of the rulebook, The Alliance Code of Conduct, for a refresher. That's not really up for discussion at this point, these are long-standing set rules of the game with years of contextual history behind them for plenty of examples of how players, not characters, should act.

I encourage you to speak with your local staff and rules marshals about this if you have any further questions.
 

Sheakhan

Adept
Either I'm failing to word my thoughts properly, or they aren't being read as written. Regardless, due to misunderstanding on one side or the other I don't feel as if this has gone or will go anywhere.

I follow the rules, and I will continue to do so, hopefully the discussion regarding a functional economy will bear fruit, and bring us closer to some form of oog-ig accountability that doesn't rely on black&white outlines of gray areas. In the meanwhile I'll continue playing as I have and hope that the ligering issues presented in this discussion never affect me.
 

Avaran

Baron
Either I'm failing to word my thoughts properly, or they aren't being read as written. Regardless, due to misunderstanding on one side or the other I don't feel as if this has gone or will go anywhere.

I follow the rules, and I will continue to do so, hopefully the discussion regarding a functional economy will bear fruit, and bring us closer to some form of oog-ig accountability that doesn't rely on black&white outlines of gray areas. In the meanwhile I'll continue playing as I have and hope that the ligering issues presented in this discussion never affect me.
Your statement above, is in direct contradiction to your statement here:

Regardless of policy, I don't believe it is unsportsmanlike to thieve or destroy or hide or resell oog goods sold ig, and in any instances where I find myself participating in such exchanges I will, because I feel it is the right thing to do
It is against the law, and against the rules, to steal non-tagged items and not return them as soon as possible/later. Period, end of story. There is no "gray area". Multiple marshals and chapter staff, even the game's owner have chimed in and said you can't steal non-tagged items unless they are returned, in whole, to their owner ASAP.

Listen man, you stating that you will thieve/destroy/resell someone's OOG goods if you get the opportunity because you "feel it is the right thing to do" - as quoted above - is what you wrote. And that is exactly what you should NOT do unless the untagged property/food is returned as soon as possible, unharmed, un-eaten, and un-destroyed. I've re-read that statement a few times to see if you could have meant it another way, and I'm coming up blank. That said, I am willing to hear you out if you'd like to clarify your statement(s).

If you want to "steal" a plate of untagged brownies IG, and put them in the kitchen somewhere for the owner to find them, that is fine. Again, do not destroy/eat/alter or in other ways disappear someone else's out-of-game property. You will be disciplined for not doing so. It's great that you want to be held to that standard, but actually stealing/destroying someone's OOG property is a bar will neither want to lower our play down to, nor will we. Saying "But you can do it to me" is not an acceptable excuse to participate in unwanted behaviors.

I admire your lofty goal of strict in-game immersion, and very much appreciate it, but not everyone who plays wants that experience, nor is looking for it, and you shouldn't force that on anyone. Sometimes you have to let that standard slide a little to ensure that everyone is having safe and having a good time. If I had my way, we'd all be using rattan weapons, not be allowed to wear armor or padding, and full-power swings would be legal. But those things aren't allowed in this game, and neither is actual theft as outlined above in this post, and many others in this thread.
 

Sheakhan

Adept
I think you misunderstood (or it was worded poorly on my part): I meant that if I personally am selling oog items for ig coin, I will consider them ig and turn profits over to game.

I won't steal others oog items, as that violates the rules, but I don't think its against the rules for me to allow my oog items to be stolen if I so choose.

Edit: yea, I see it now. You only quoted the first half of that poorly written run-on sentence. It continues on to say that I will mark MY goods stealable.

I'm not going to break the rules, no worries.
 

Sheakhan

Adept
Yea, I'm aware I come off a little cold via this medium, but that'd be a line too far crossed. Ultimately, if I don't agree with the current ruling and bringing that concern up doesn't net any change, the best I can do is follow the rules, enjoy the game, and be an example of what I think a player and character should be/do as best I can within the scope of the rules and my interpretation of good sportsmanship. While I might come across crass, I'm not interested in ruining someone else' enjoyment or playing a character in such a way as to deliberately upset folks oog.
 

jpariury

Duke
I didn't know you could transfer gold between characters outside of the game.
You weren't aware that Nigel could sell Gregor a monkey for five gold between games?

Before someone says "but what about...?" please note the exception to the "only tagged items can be stolen" rule (which is mentioned in the Rule Book) -- plot items can be stolen. For instance, I am putting out a bunch of in-game letters and documents at this next event, along with a few plot items that don't have numbers but are put out by the Plot Committee (i.e.: "The Mystical Stone of Noonah, which can be used to open the portal!"). Clearly, there is no problem with you stealing those things.
I think this may be a difference in how games are run - if a stealable game-item has no tag, how is a marshal expected to be aware that one cup is stealable while another isn't, on a table filled with cups?
 

jpariury

Duke
Under the circumstance that doing so is considered, by the president and owners of Alliance, to be more beneficial to the quality of player experience than detrimental.
Clearly, then, the ideal method of promoting change would be to open up public discussions like this in order to attempt to change the opinion of the owners (or have my own changed).

Why shouldn't be as simple as "follow the already existing rules for when/how you can steal and make a small compromise to the fact that we're playing a game and the enjoyment of the players around you ideally should be just as important as your own"?
Because we are playing a game and "my" enjoyment is ideally as important as the other players'.

it redistributes wealth from one Player Character to another Player Character.
That's not necessarily accurate. What if you trade a brownie to a troll for your freedom? Should your secret enemy be able to steal the brownie from you to prevent that from happening? Can the brownie be stolen after you've gotten your freedom?
 

Alavatar

Baron
Not every in-game transaction can have a set in-game value. Otherwise you would need an encyclopedia-size document that tells you what the value is of cake vs. massage vs. freedom vs. longsword vs. Damage Aura scroll. Realistically, at some point the Barter System takes over where things that have a defined IG value start being traded for items that have ill-defined IG value (i.e. ritual scrolls, reagents, catalysts, plot device) and then extended to things that have no defined IG value (massage, freedom, brownie, clothing, etc.).

Things that have no defined IG value (non-tagged items) are not stealable. Do they need to be? Other than "my character would steal it if he could", which is not very sportsman-like for things that have no IG value/benefit, I don't see a reason to make them stealable.

As a work-around for the player with a character that would steal that thing if he could, I would entertain the concept of "steal it, remove it from play, return it OOG to the player" model (without tags, because tags would add hassle).

(Note: I was under the impression that Plot Devices need a tag so that they could be easily identifiable as stealable)
 

jpariury

Duke
Not every in-game transaction can have a set in-game value.
I would suggest that not every transaction needs a set in-game value. As you point out, scrolls and components have ill-defined values, if any at all.

Things that have no defined IG value (non-tagged items) are not stealable. Do they need to be?
Inasmuch as such things have a value (whether mercantile or social) within the context of the game, probably.

I would entertain the concept of "steal it, remove it from play, return it OOG to the player" model (without tags, because tags would add hassle).
How does that work with denying characters the rewards for having said items when they get a "new" one, using the same object but drawing it from the same "source" as the prior one?
 

markusdark

Knight
You weren't aware that Nigel could sell Gregor a monkey for five gold between games?
Actually, yes. I had thought that IG items (such as coins) could only change hands with characters at the actual game. I must be either remembering a really old rule or another system's rule.

BTW, the monkey's name would be Jeff.
 
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