If you sell it IG should it be stealable?

Mike Ventrella

Duke
Owner
Moderator
HQ Staff
I think the distinction between baked goods and game items is this (as I said in the other thread):

Players bring OOG stuff into game all the time to sell for game money, whether it's food or things they've made like weapons, armor, pouches, artwork, and so on. These things are those players' personal property. They are not game items because they have no tag. These players could, if they desired, sell these items for real money only. If you stole these items, you would be a thief -- YOU would be a REAL thief. The fact that players have decided to sell these items for game money changes nothing, in my opinion. The fact that you stole them in the game instead of in the parking lot makes no difference. Those items still belong to them, and if you take them without compensation you are a thief. It provides absolutely no fun for the victim who has lost real, non-game items that they spent time and money on and thus hurts the game as a whole, because we want to encourage character merchants.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
I don't think anyone is actually arguing that you can take the baked goods and eat them, but rather that the seller gains an unfair advantage over other merchants of tagged goods (with physrep) by the fact that their wares are theft proof. As a couple of people have pointed out in both threads, requiring the seller to create tags for the items being sold in game means that these items are then placed on the same IG playing field as say, someone selling Intoxicate Elixirs. A thief can steal a brownie, but they can't eat it, they can only merchant off a "snack" tag.
 

jpariury

Duke
It provides absolutely no fun for the victim who has lost real, non-game items that they spent time and money on and thus hurts the game as a whole, because we want to encourage character merchants.
In your estimation, in what way is stealing a brownie (that has been put up for in-game sale) distinct from buying the brownie for in-game coin, and then rolling the merchant for that coin?
 

Toddo

Knight
HQ Staff
Marshal
Players selling baked goods, pouches or clothes they made, portraits they painted or whathaveyou are enriching the game experience for other players by providing (sometimes expensive) items or services for fake money, and doing so in a way that places no burden on the chapter in terms of tags, regulation, treasure policy and OOG cost of coin. As a plot writer and general manager of a chapter players doing these things take some of the burden of event management and player entertainment off of me.

Players offering these services provide a real tangible benefit to the game. Setting up a system where (inevitably) somebody on staff will have to track and regulate these things removes those benefits and adds additional work to my volunteers.

What is the benefit to the game if we make it more difficult/frustrating for people who are actively adding to other players' fun (both merchant and staff) just so that other players can add even more frustration to the process by then using these rules to steal the items they provide at no cost to the chapter and for money that has no real world value?

If you want a merchant's stuff, grow a pair and mug/amnesia them.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
As I've said Toddo, I understand and appreciate why the system is the way it is. I also agree with Adam from an earlier post, if a player truly thinks this is a problem for the chapter that needs correcting that player best be prepared to step up and do the work for the chapter so as not to add to an already over-burdened staff. I do want to point out that you make an allusion to the very core of the issue:

"If you want a merchant's stuff, grow a pair and mug/amnesia them."

That's the crux of the matter. You can't. There is no way to mug your local flower vendor and relieve them of their posies. You cannot take their flowers as OOG those belong to them, and yet they can sell them, even after you mug them in an attempt to keep their roses out of the market. The only way to relieve a merchant of their actual goods, and all the stories that could go along with that, is for those who want to sell items IG to have IG tags to go with the OOG physreps.

Is it worth doing that much work? I leave that up the individual chapters. I personally think it's worth it, and I'm personally willing to do the legwork for it. It's not such a pressing issue that it should be made mandatory nationally, although I maintain that it's better than the current system.
 
Last edited:

jpariury

Duke
Setting up a system where (inevitably) somebody on staff will have to track and regulate these things removes those benefits and adds additional work to my volunteers.
Why shouldn't it be as simple as "if you are selling it for IG coin only, it can be stolen/no tags needed, no support needed"?
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Because then people would sell it for IG coin plus $.01.
 

Toddo

Knight
HQ Staff
Marshal
Why shouldn't it be as simple as "if you are selling it for IG coin only, it can be stolen/no tags needed, no support needed"?
Why shouldn't be as simple as "follow the already existing rules for when/how you can steal and make a small compromise to the fact that we're playing a game and the enjoyment of the players around you ideally should be just as important as your own"?
 

Mike Ventrella

Duke
Owner
Moderator
HQ Staff
I agree with everything Toddo said.

It's all about what kind of game you want. Some people love games where there are no Wards and you can kill anyone you want while they sleep. Some like games where you always have to wear your armor even when it's hot. Some like games where everything is stealable. Some like games where players mostly prey on other players.

I'm not interested in any of those kinds of games.

How's this for a general guideline: It's OK to steal game items, which include tagged items and coins. You have to follow the appropriate rules (you have to take the weapon phys rep and then see a marshal to get the tag and can't just steal the tag, for instance.) It's NOT OK to steal people's personal possessions, even if the possessions are being used in-game to generate game items, because that's against the spirit of our Good Sportsman rule.

Seriously, I look to the game as a whole. Players selling artwork, pouches, brownies, or other things for IG money make the game more fun for everyone. Someone stealing those things makes the game NOT fun for everyone, and only fun for one thief. The balance always goes to making the game fun for everyone.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Why shouldn't it be as simple as "if you are selling it for IG coin only, it can be stolen/no tags needed, no support needed"?
Actually, because at that point, as MikeV pointed out it's _actual_ theft of actual goods. That's part of the reason that you can take someone's MI / armor / weapon, but can only _keep_ the tag. The owner of the physical item is still the person you "stole" it from.
 
I would strongly encourage those people arguing that stealing snacks is a necessary balance against the comparative benefits of selling untagged items for coin versus tagged items made by the production system to apply their creativity to brainstorming ways to improve the production system, which most owners have at least some interest in, rather than ways to legitimize stealing snacks from other players, which stands virtually no chance of ever making it into the rule book. After all, the simplest solution to this increasingly cancerous debate from a rules standpoint is: "Stealing from other players is not permitted."
 

markusdark

Knight
Do you feel it is too much to ask if someone is going to sell brownies in game, that they take a CO - Baker skill before they do that? I mean, there should be some minimal requirement along those lines if you're going to be gaining an IG advantage (collection of more coin). I remember playing in a mod where I wasn't allowed to steer a ship because I didn't have CO - Sailor. If I can't pilot without a skill, why can I bake brownies?
 

Sheakhan

Adept
I don't think its just about the skill justification, or people wanting to steal brownies...

It's about the implication of allowing the trade of oog items for ig gain.

If I can trade brownies for coin, I can trade other oog items for coin.

I can pay Joe Formalist fifty dollars to make me a magic item. I can pay in cookies Joe fighter to teach me Slay. I can turn ny oog money or items into ig benefit.

Now you might say, I can already do that by donating to the chapter and turning gob into coin... But why on earth would I when there's less hassle and more return doing it without giving anything to the game?

It's a pay to win workaround that screws the game. Sure its awesome to run ig bakeries and the like, but with the current ruling on it, you open the door for more nefarious, less beneficial oog to ig trades.
 

Tantarus

Squire
It's a pay to win workaround that screws the game. Sure its awesome to run ig bakeries and the like, but with the current ruling on it, you open the door for more nefarious, less beneficial oog to ig trades.
In 20 plus years of Nero/Alliance it has not broke the game. I don't see it doing so now. If it becomes an issue staff can step in. But there is no reason to change it just because it "could" or "might" become an issue.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Players selling baked goods, pouches or clothes they made, portraits they painted or whathaveyou are enriching the game experience for other players by providing (sometimes expensive) items or services for fake money, and doing so in a way that places no burden on the chapter in terms of tags, regulation, treasure policy and OOG cost of coin. As a plot writer and general manager of a chapter players doing these things take some of the burden of event management and player entertainment off of me.

Players offering these services provide a real tangible benefit to the game. Setting up a system where (inevitably) somebody on staff will have to track and regulate these things removes those benefits and adds additional work to my volunteers.

What is the benefit to the game if we make it more difficult/frustrating for people who are actively adding to other players' fun (both merchant and staff) just so that other players can add even more frustration to the process by then using these rules to steal the items they provide at no cost to the chapter and for money that has no real world value?
I agree so much with this, Yes YES. 100% correct.


If you want a merchant's stuff, grow a pair and mug/amnesia them.
This not so much. See as others have stated here this provides absolutely no fun for the victim and creates a bit of animosity. I'd rather just grab a brownie that is being left unattended.

Why shouldn't be as simple as "follow the already existing rules for when/how you can steal and make a small compromise to the fact that we're playing a game and the enjoyment of the players around you ideally should be just as important as your own"?
I can use this for every rule that some one wants to change (or race/class too) .
 

Toddo

Knight
HQ Staff
Marshal
David,

1. Thanks

2. So is the solution "no PC on PC theft"? I'd be ok with that, but it's not my top choice.

3. Possibly, but what is being suggested here would lead to a lot more animosity than changing Purify/Drain to 8th level did. Though I stand 100% behind the sentiment that if you're always taking the enjoyment of the players around you into account the game is better for everyone, including you.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
It's a pay to win workaround that screws the game. Sure its awesome to run ig bakeries and the like, but with the current ruling on it, you open the door for more nefarious, less beneficial oog to ig trades.
This "door" has been open for the better part of two decades. I have not even seen anyone LOOK at said door yet (let alone go through it).

This is not in any way screwing the game.
 

Tyson

Scholar
Gettysburg Staff
Just in case this gets lost in the discussion at times: all of that IG coin that you're making from selling OOG stuff, is coming from other players and was at some point obtained through IG means. Nobody is actually generating "new wealth" into the game this way. Conversely, donating for gobbies and using those for coin/production items, does actually add wealth to the IG world.
 
Top