If you sell it IG should it be stealable?

evi1r0n

Baron
So the economy discussion has come up and I am curious about a particular point, if you sell it at game, should it be stealable? Before you jump in and say "untagged items can't be stolen," I know the rule, this is a hypothetical discussion.

It seems to me that if a sword (which is purchased with IG money) is stealable, then food, drink, etc. should also be.

A buddy of mine, JP, often brings up the point that a player can set out a plate of brownies with a jar that says ,"1 silver/brownie". You can steal all the coin but not the jar or the brownies without being accused of OOG stealing. That seems broken to me.

If you are going to bring something to make part of the IG world, it should be part of the IG world. I get expensive OOG items should be returned at end of game but I don't think things in the game world need special rules of interaction.
 

phil90

Artisan
Marshal
I agree with your point that if it is sold IG it becomes an IG item. I do however consider another point to this. A player in our chapter sometimes spend hours baking to sell them IG. It would be disapointing if all that work came to waste because another player stole the result of all that work.

Yes the items could be returned OOG but still if you baked a big basket of different food and they don't get eaten it may create negative feeling within the players.
 

Sheakhan

Adept
Players spend hours/days/weeks/months/years building up the capital to get a magic item. It would be disappointing if all that work came to waste because another player stole the result of all that work. I'm new to Alliance, but this seems like a pretty valid point.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
I do think that if you're selling it IG then it should be stealable IG, but Philippe has a super valid point. It's why I think that the benefits of selling items should be GS instead of coin, or an arrangement with Plot for X Goblin Stamps that is turned in specifically for coin at logistics. This way the work to provide to the community is compensated for the same as if you donated other physical items, like shields or weapon physreps, to monster camp. You've put in time and money to provide an IG service to the chapter.
 

Inaryn

Knight
Someone put out thin mints once. After losing the will power battle, I "stole" the box, ate four, then wrote on the box that IG, it had been stolen. The player, when he got back, read the note, ducked under the table for a second, and then put the box back out, note side down as a new box IG.

I think defering to Wheaton's Law on this one is probably the best way to go.
 

Sheakhan

Adept
That sounds easily abused. Currently you're asked not to donate anything without checking with the chapter first, as they may not need it.
Your suggestion would change that to: "Check with the chapter before buying items to donate, unless those items are brownies, then come on down and get your free goblin stamps."
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
If you're merchanting real life items in game it's plot that would set the GS price so you'd have to check with them first under such a system anyways. Also, I could add to the atmosphere by selling brownies that cost me $5, or I could just donate $5 to the chapter, and I've yet to meet a chapter that didn't always accept cash donations.
 

Sheakhan

Adept
All I'm saying is that if it becomes standard to reward GS for comestibles, I'm making a baker character and bringing hundreds of out-of-the-box brownies to every event to cash in for my current PC. Or at least I would, if I were that sort of player. I can imagine that others are less inclined to do the right thing and establishing a policy that feeds into that seems like a poor choice.
 

Lurin

Duke
I've been pondering this discussion for awhile and decided I am on the other side of it. For the below reasons.

A.) I don't want to be directly involved, as an owner, for goblin stamping, determining what is worth it/rates. It's a lot of work and customer service headaches. I do not want or desire to rate if Sallie's cookies are better then Bobby's Brownies.
B.) There are a large numbers of ways people make money in game. I run three toons. One makes his money from loot splits, and selling in Game services (earth rituals) as well as occasionally brokering items or components. The second makes money entirely by being a merchant and production skills. In his case I actually make way more money by always being willing to buy tags from people splitting loot and reselling them then my production skills. About 20% of that character's money comes from tips because hey, he's a lovable rabbit. My third character never has any money because he gives it away and doesn't pay any attention to loot splits (his share inevitably gets stolen) BUT that toon never goes without. Folks know him so he usually gets his food by telling someone near-by he's hungry. All of these are different but completely playable ways to deal with money. With the first two toons, I am by far one of the biggest customers of people that bring things to sell, or offer services.
C.) Services are often sold in game (I'm a sucker for a massage after a wave battle) Why is the effort for that provided in game okay, but the effort in baking treats not? Is it a service (feeding you) or is it an item? A bit of a judgement call.

Long story short, it's my view that anything that does not provide an in-game advantage (like a weapon you can hit someone with etc.) No one is forced to buy your brownies, or your massage service. Sure once you've been paid and accepted IG coin (and thus an in game advantage) it becomes steal-able, but you accept that transition at the point of sale. As much as people like to think that transitive properties make things the same it's not. Stealing my brownies I am selling, is not the same as stealing the coin after I sell them. Because at that point I have already improved the game by feeding someone/providing a service. Ultimately I understand that some folks don't think that these services are worthwhile and would like the ability to stop them, I generally disagree with that concept.
 

Sheakhan

Adept
What if... crazy thought... people selling items like this for IG money were issued a stack of "random food item" tags at check in, to include with each sold item.
The item, once sold for IG cash is now IG, can be stolen, and it requires no more effort from logistics than hitting print on a sheet of tags. If it becomes a matter of cost, have the sheets cost a set amount (investment) when issued so that it isn't a money hemorrhaging venture for the game which also doubles as a representation of IG purchase of materials.

You eat the brownie, you shred the tag. Someone steals the tag/brownie, they now have your brownie, sucks to be you.

Alternately: Provide a printable sheet of food item specific tags for bakers to print themselves, and make that a simple requirement for selling OOG items IG to mesh better with the setting.
 

Pantzike

Scout
Actually with the tag your brownies ruling. If I had a tagged brownie, and you stole it. I'd let you keep the tag, but would kindly ask for my brownie rep back.

Food is an OOG thing, and stealing it is not cool. If certain players allow some of their food to be "open season / stealable" go ahead and take it and choose to compensate them or not, however that is the providers choice not the thief.

As an edit: Coin is always stealable. If you want to pay somebody and then mug them for their coin, neato... be that guy I guess. There are rules in place to support how that transaction is handled.

People keep looking at wanting to take the food, instead of realizing that they just need to pay for it and then take the coin back without getting caught to make it all ok.

Steal enough from food providers and they stop providing it, and everybody loses.
 
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MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Thanks David. Getting other perspectives, especially pros/cons, helps test an idea. Those are some angles I hadn't thought of.

I will agree wholeheartedly that Wheaton's Law is paramount in these kinds of difficult situations.

I may side-step this issue by selling treats that are actually tagged items, if I can get the hang of it. :)
 

Sheakhan

Adept
On phys reps:
"If you create your own through the Production Points system, then you must supply a physical representation (“phys rep”) for the item, and the tag must be attached. This physical representation can be stolen, at which point the thief will take the tag and the item." pg 78
also:
"If you have a very expensive or personal item that gets turned magical (say , a very nice suit of armor) and the item is stolen in-game, you have the right to refuse to turn over your personal item. Y ou must still, of course, turn over the tags for that item. In exchange for keeping your own item, you forfeit your right to “recognize” your special armor later when the thief wears it in-game (using your tags with his or her own physical representation)" pg 78 as well.

I've noticed that the second portion of this ruling also applies to weapon phys-reps in general, unofficially branching it out to cover expensive or involved phsy. reps regardless of whether the item they represent is magical or not. So yea, if you classify a brownie as an expensive/personal/magical phys. rep, you are entitled to keep it and eat the brownie anyway (which is kind of vaguely like keeping a magic item phys rep and using it as a regular or different magical item later). Essentially dude has a brownie tag that he now needs a brownie phys-rep for (throwing weapon, anyone?).

I think whats being missed here isn't just blatant thievery but also death, item loss, etc. If you get dropped and go res, your brownie gets left behind. If you set it down somewhere and someone picks it up thinking it's free food, it's theirs now. Whether it be stealing or otherwise I think it's a valid point that items introduced to the game via merchants or gifts, even ones without a real game role, ought to be tracked the same way the moment that they are exchanged for IG coin regardless of the item.

Ultimately in the case of brownies or other food items, once you've purchased it, it's yours to eat. If it gets stolen you aren't required to fork over the phys. rep.
 

Sita

Scholar
As I'm reading through this something keeps coming up in regards to "in game food items", or un-tagged food/drink being sold for in-game coin, and whether or not they can/should be stolen.

It's fairly obvious that my bow is a tagged, in game item. Chances are /very/ good {and I believe against the rules to a degree} that I'm not going to have a bow with me that isn't tagged or part of the game world. That's /not/ the same with food.

I cook for game, and often share my food with other players. But that food isn't sold for in-game coin, and most discussions happen out of character in regards to the food. How is another player, who isn't a part of that OOC discussion supposed to know that my muffin isn't a stealable item? If I leave my muffin to get more coffee, and I come back to it stolen, do I just have to deal with it? And how does another player know I'm not full of crap, purchased the muffin with in game coin, and simply want it back?

David made a very good point. I don't have to purchase OG food with IG coin. {I generally don't} But when we start talking about an item that isn't easily distinguishable as in game or out of game, I think it should be left as un-stealable. {not entirely sure that a tag is going to really solve that problem} Coin? Fine. Steal my obviously in-game stuff, but I think having food items be stealable is a very uncomfortable gray area.

Anyways, sorry for the ramble ^.^
 
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stonegolem

Scholar
Marshal
This is something like the nine thousandth time this exact topic has arisen. Is this actually an issue somewhere, where there are cookie thieves and jerky thieves who are OOG willing to attempt to justify stealing someone's food that they made with OOG money and resources by saying "oh, it's all in game, it's being sold for IG money" and expecting that to protect them from at the very least being known to all and sundry as a rulebook-thumping turd and at the most being banned for OOG thievery?

I am actually curious about this, not just being loud and snarky.
 

Sheakhan

Adept
Then maybe we should consider the possibility that selling OOG items should be done for OOG money. Craftsfolk sell their pouches, weapons, and garb for real cash. Why should food peddlers do any different?
Even if that doesn't become the case, if you steal someone's food you shouldn't eat it without discussing the tag situation with them first. It's perfectly okay for you to destroy your own phys. reps, but if you steal Joe Fighter's sword, you can't/shouldn't destroy or alter it until you know if he wants it back or not, or if it's even IG at all. As far as I'm aware, you shouldn't be utilizing any IG item without the appropriate tag, even if it's stolen, so you shouldn't be eating IG food unless you have the tag. If there is no tag, it's not steal-able.
 

mguarino

Artisan
Marshal
My two cents:

I draw a distinction between food that the provider has assigned IG value to, and food that he/she has not.

That is, food being sold for coin should be stealable, and food that is not (or if it's not completely clear that it is) should be considered OOG property.

In the scenario of the plate of ten brownies with a sign saying "1 silver per," the rules very much support a player leaving a gold, taking the brownies, and then taking the gold. (It's a jerk move IG, but only IG.) I don't think it's too much of a stretch to then carry that to my distinction above and just allow the brownies to be stealable, because they essentially already are.

If people are cooking for their friends/selves, that's different. But as soon as a Coin value is placed on an item by its owner, I think it should be fair game for the more - pardon the pun - unsavory characters of Fortannis.
 

Sita

Scholar
This is something like the nine thousandth time this exact topic has arisen. Is this actually an issue somewhere, where there are cookie thieves and jerky thieves who are OOG willing to attempt to justify stealing someone's food that they made with OOG money and resources by saying "oh, it's all in game, it's being sold for IG money" and expecting that to protect them from at the very least being known to all and sundry as a rulebook-thumping turd and at the most being banned for OOG thievery?

I am actually curious about this, not just being loud and snarky.
That I don't know, but it struck me as something that could easily happen ~.^
 

mguarino

Artisan
Marshal
So, to answer your question, Evan, yes, such people exist. Hi. I hope you don't think I'm a terrible person now. :)
 

stonegolem

Scholar
Marshal
Mike Guarino: Rulebook-Thumping Turd
 
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