In Game Economy

You supply your own NPC is the rule.
 
I was thinking more of, ummm its plot controlled and that's it.
 
the Magic-Fuel is very keen, but it's not, unfortunately, part of the current paradigm; if it had been developed at the beginning of the game (like some other LARPs) it would be perfectly acceptable and viable and no one would think it's screwing anyone over. i have seen some LCO Magic Items which were flawed and demanded some kind of Magic-Fuel, usually in the form of "attuning" (ie, spending coin at Logistics), and found those who used them to be more than happy about it. i think a slow movement to include "Fueled" items would be a welcome change, though not if instantly adopted across the board

the problem with a simple auction is that the influx of coin really won't offset the game-wide inflation rate. unless the auction was a constant affair with a list of MIs and Prod items being sent out at each event (a logistical headache), the influx would be so minuscule as to be almost meaningless. not to mention, it would further increase the gaps 'tween the Haves and the Have-nots as auctions always favour the wealthy - this is not, in and of itself, necessarily 'bad' but the "gear gap" is often cited as a problem with Alliance and, in the end, still wouldn't address the underlying economic issue

the coin problem is one of simple inflation: every Chapter in the game "mints" coin at a steady rate; there's no incentive against hoarding so people accrue massive savings; there's no "cost of living" expenses since PCs don't really spend coin to live. these factors devalue the copper and will eventually lead to a break-down in the economy as more Chapters join the Alliance and compound the problem. any solution needs to address these issues or it's merely a band-aid against longterm organ failure

think of it this way, in order to overcome inflation, any system has to account for that fact that 15 Chapters are each introducing about 1,000 gold worth of "new" coin a year (assuming an anemic 10 games a year each with 100g worth of Treasure Policy). that's 15,000 new gold a year undermining previous investments and PC purchasing power. these numbers are guesstimates based on observation, and inflation will affect high-density areas more than lower-density (eg. East Coast vs West Coast), but the problem is pretty staggering
 
Mobius said:
the Magic-Fuel is very keen, but it's not, unfortunately, part of the current paradigm; if it had been developed at the beginning of the game (like some other LARPs) it would be perfectly acceptable and viable and no one would think it's screwing anyone over. i have seen some LCO Magic Items which were flawed and demanded some kind of Magic-Fuel, usually in the form of "attuning" (ie, spending coin at Logistics), and found those who used them to be more than happy about it. i think a slow movement to include "Fueled" items would be a welcome change, though not if instantly adopted across the board

the problem with a simple auction is that the influx of coin really won't offset the game-wide inflation rate. unless the auction was a constant affair with a list of MIs and Prod items being sent out at each event (a logistical headache), the influx would be so minuscule as to be almost meaningless. not to mention, it would further increase the gaps 'tween the Haves and the Have-nots as auctions always favour the wealthy - this is not, in and of itself, necessarily 'bad' but the "gear gap" is often cited as a problem with Alliance and, in the end, still wouldn't address the underlying economic issue

the coin problem is one of simple inflation: every Chapter in the game "mints" coin at a steady rate; there's no incentive against hoarding so people accrue massive savings; there's no "cost of living" expenses since PCs don't really spend coin to live. these factors devalue the copper and will eventually lead to a break-down in the economy as more Chapters join the Alliance and compound the problem. any solution needs to address these issues or it's merely a band-aid against longterm organ failure

think of it this way, in order to overcome inflation, any system has to account for that fact that 15 Chapters are each introducing about 1,000 gold worth of "new" coin a year (assuming an anemic 10 games a year each with 100g worth of Treasure Policy). that's 15,000 new gold a year undermining previous investments and PC purchasing power. these numbers are guesstimates based on observation, and inflation will affect high-density areas more than lower-density (eg. East Coast vs West Coast), but the problem is pretty staggering


You are complicating a simple situation......chapters want coin back so they dont have to spend money to make more coin. By giving the PCs ways to spend coin ( auction / food ) every party is happy.
 
unless your food/auction is enough to overcome the outgoing Treasure Policy (something like 1 silver per build per person per day) it's a losing proposition. i don't know the exact formula for treasure drop, but it's a hellacious amount of coin dropped every event - far more than will ever be spent on constant auctions especially since many of the auctioned items can be found for "free" by adventuring

besides, let's assume the auction idea flies. this means we're dumping all of Treasure Policy back into game as Magic Items. since the auction needs to be held once a game in order to offset TP, MIs become very common and thus, cheap, which means even more MIs need to be auctioned. now, the game is gorged on MIs (a problem people already whinge about) with nothing but more, cheaper, MIs in sight

the only real solution i can think of is somehow limiting Treasure Policy and increasing the cost of survival - but if there was ever a less popular solution, i haven't seen it
 
I cant answer for everyone but IG coin for OOG food is a win win for me at any price.

Think I paid 2g for a burger at one event, but that was a PC selling it. I know way back in the day HQ made mini pizzas at the old HQ site, I know they sold in a matter of minutes. As far as an auction, it does not have to be MI, it can be anything the chapter can think of.....deed to a house, production, comps, a lost treasure map, whatever.

As far as treasure policy.....thats a can of worms for a diffrent thread.
 
Mobius said:
besides, let's assume the auction idea flies. this means we're dumping all of Treasure Policy back into game as Magic Items. since the auction needs to be held once a game in order to offset TP, MIs become very common and thus, cheap, which means even more MIs need to be auctioned. now, the game is gorged on MIs (a problem people already whinge about) with nothing but more, cheaper, MIs in sight

I agree that auctions are not the option. What I find curious though is that everyone assumes the auctions have to be magic items. Why not have other auctions as well? A warrior permed in the land but he had outstanding debts and his house and possessions go up for auction. This would provide unique rp options as well...

Actually...I'm totally going to write some plot for this. Close your ears everyone!
 
An auction doesn't have to just be magic items; rare elven wine or a book of history on the lands or a study on a recently discovered enemy or an heirloom vase or an item from a shopping list quest people have been searching for. And have NPCs in bidding on things too.

Another way you can use occasionally to get back coin is a snake oil merchant. We had one selling liquid lights for an outrageous price claiming they worked as vorpals (or something) against the minions of the BBG coming that weekend. He made out like, well, a bandit and lights just provided light.

We've done taxes, beggars, donations, and have an estate packet. There are ways to get the coin back in. Sometimes it is a bit challenging and there are PCs who just want to hoard their coin; some have even claimed they won't bring it to game so it is safe.

I agree coin retention is a tricky thing, but there are was to make it flow back in.
 
If I were to do it...

I'd overhaul production skills and methods. I'd make the production skill govern what kinds of things you can make/things you can do with the stuff you make (e.g. at 10 ranks you can combine 1 clw and any other potion for 5 extra production, or something.)

I'd make the production fueled off found production. No more purify potions and dragon's breath scrolls on monsters... you find pure water and rare vellum and they're worth PP values. You can make whatever you have access to via skill for whatever you have the production for.

Workshops would either double your production (and cost in coin) or double your skill level, letting you have access to more difficult stuff.

Unfortunately, while it'd probably bring in a lot more coin, it also involves a new set of tags. So it doesn't exactly make things easier... just different.
 
Putting out production-worthy stuff just staves off the amount of coin outflow you have, it doesn't really bring in more tokens.

Mind you, I like putting out production-substitute payments. It just doesn't really solve the economic issue.
 
jpariury said:
Putting out production-worthy stuff just staves off the amount of coin outflow you have, it doesn't really bring in more tokens.

Mind you, I like putting out production-substitute payments. It just doesn't really solve the economic issue.

With the system as is, agreed.

Which is why I'd overhaul it.
 
Inaryn said:
jpariury said:
Putting out production-worthy stuff just staves off the amount of coin outflow you have, it doesn't really bring in more tokens.

Mind you, I like putting out production-substitute payments. It just doesn't really solve the economic issue.

With the system as is, agreed.

Which is why I'd overhaul it.

Yeah, but how without breaking it further?
Making a stable economy is very tricky & people who spend their entire lives doing nothing but economics have trouble coming up with a balanced production.

There are a few ways to try & take coin out of the game by having certain components only available from NPC merchants (government run), make repairs to weapons/armor/items required to use those components (how to make it balanced is a trick though), and then several of the previously noted items (auctioning off things, NPC run kitchen/food for coin, etc).
 
AFAICT, the primary issue is that while there is a mechanical requirement that chapters put out X amount coin (or its equivalent) on average over the course of some amount of events, there is no mechanical drive for chapters to pull in some amount of coin on any regular basis. It's hard-coded that chapters must give coin, but not hard-coded that coin must come back in. Production doesn't really solve the issue because there is no requirement that characters buy it. Sure, it's nice to have and can make things easier, but I've rarely ever seen a situation that would have been make or break based on the presence of production items, and in the instances where I have, it's because those effects were only accessible by those means.
 
SkollWolfrun said:
Yeah, but how without breaking it further?

Inaryn said:
If I were to do it...

I'd overhaul production skills and methods. I'd make the production skill govern what kinds of things you can make/things you can do with the stuff you make (e.g. at 10 ranks you can combine 1 clw and any other potion for 5 extra production, or something.)

I'd make the production fueled off found production. No more purify potions and dragon's breath scrolls on monsters... you find pure water and rare vellum and they're worth PP values. You can make whatever you have access to via skill for whatever you have the production for.

Workshops would either double your production (and cost in coin) or double your skill level, letting you have access to more difficult stuff.

Unfortunately, while it'd probably bring in a lot more coin, it also involves a new set of tags. So it doesn't exactly make things easier... just different.

Our production system is like a poorly set bone... it works, but it doesn't work well and it's painful. So, to answer your question... I'd absolutely break it.
 
A NPC-run bank would solve a lot of these problems. Sure, there would be the paranoid players who stash everything in a warded room in a warded cabinet, which is all inside the celestial circle (which I have seen done before...), but most players would store the money they save up with the local bank. It could potentially take most of the gold out of circulation. People would keep some out for change and quick purchases, but 10-20 GP a person isn't much when the huge, hundred-gold stashes are in paper form. Hell, you could provide interest as an incentive to keep it in the bank if necessary. There is the problem of accessibility, but there are ways around that, such as having the equivalent of checks. Sure, it's complicated, but I could see some players or NPCs becoming notaries/scribes who can witness checks and write them out for people who can't read and write. An NPC banker could be in the Tavern a couple times a day, and people could cash checks then. Banks, letters of credit, and the equivalent of checks have all existed since the middle ages, so it's perfectly period, too, though I reckon most people setting this sort of thing up would use excel rather than ledger books and an abacus...

This wouldn't solve the inflation problem, but that's a whole separate can of beans.
 
There's a New Zealand larp in which you have to turn in all of your tags and coin at the end of each event. If you failed to turn in a certain amount of coin by the end of the event, you had some form of negative impact next time you came into game, and if you turned in significantly more than that amount, you were considered to be living well and got some minor bonus at your next game. Otherwise, you were given some amount of coin at the start of each event depending on your income level (I think "Noble" was a skill you could buy) and from that you had to pay for your equipment for that game. An interesting system, but it would require some fairly massive restructuring of the game system to work here.
 
It doesn't have to be that dramatic. I wouldn't want to make putting your money in it mandatory or require that all coin be turned in. It would be an in-game bank, backed by the government of whatever realm the chapter is set in, that you could choose to put your money in or not. I think enough people would choose to keep their money there (especially if they had interest and were assured that it was truly safe), that it would at least help alleviate the problem of buying gold coins. There wouldn't need to be any rules restructuring that I know of to do that.
 
jpariury said:
AFAICT, the primary issue is that while there is a mechanical requirement that chapters put out X amount coin (or its equivalent) on average over the course of some amount of events, there is no mechanical drive for chapters to pull in some amount of coin on any regular basis. It's hard-coded that chapters must give coin, but not hard-coded that coin must come back in. Production doesn't really solve the issue because there is no requirement that characters buy it. Sure, it's nice to have and can make things easier, but I've rarely ever seen a situation that would have been make or break based on the presence of production items, and in the instances where I have, it's because those effects were only accessible by those means.

I have see a lot of situations make or break on production items, but I also like to play the level 10-15 game in chapters with APL's 20+, so production is being used as temporary build compensation. :D
 
I like the idea of a banking system, however it should fit with the political structure of our game. A government-backed bank is an incredibly modern idea (in fact, currently being debated in our own government).

A better system for the game given our Medieval flavor would be similar to the Medici banks that funded the Renaissance, as the political system of our game is pre-Renaissance. These were a system of very wealthy family-owned and operated banks that charged high prices for their services; however, it was also the first major system to have a "branch" system since the Roman Empire, where one could deposit funds in one city and withdraw them in another (often for land purchases). As a game mechanic, these added fees (deposit/withdrawal fees?) would also bring in more coin beyond the deposited funds and the branch system could be done through Circles of Power.

Land loans or even personal loans might also be a possibility, with the added "bonus" of personal plot for those who did not pay back debts in full (think debt collecting High Orcs...). The Medici family through this wealth was able to give money to government institutions and buy political positions, most notably in the Vatican. In our game, it could be changed to buying positions into Guilds and otherwise influencing Nobility (such as buying things for magical Guild to allow a system of Circles to be set-up in the first place). This could add another layer to the nobility structure and give Plot teams more to work with, as power conflicts could be a source of plot and hooks. Prime candidates to run the banks would be Hoblings.

As a player, the incentive to store coin in the bank would be guaranteed in-game protection from theft for coins (up to a certain limit). The merchant skill would then become more valuable as random production items found that would not otherwise be guaranteed protection can be converted to coin.

To help the game running side, the bank could be "open for business" only during Logistics, and that way, the information about the players funds is recorded and maintained all at the same time. Yes, it's an additional step for Logistics, but it's better than a bank PCs could use all day (which would happen, thus effectively taking out at least one person with access to player files for the weekend and that's no fun for anyone).

This could solve the issue of physical coinage and add more to the gameworld, so I think it could be a win-win.

Edit: Spelling/Grammar
 
OrcFighterFTW said:
I like the idea of a banking system, however it should fit with the political structure of our game. A government-backed bank is an incredibly modern idea (in fact, currently being debated in our own government).

A better system for the game given our Medieval flavor would be similar to the Medici banks that funded the Renaissance, as the political system of our game is pre-Renaissance. These were a system of very wealthy family-owned and operated banks that charged high prices for their services; however, it was also the first major system to have a "branch" system since the Roman Empire, where one could deposit funds in one city and withdraw them in another (often for land purchases). As a game mechanic, these added fees (deposit/withdrawal fees?) would also bring in more coin beyond the deposited funds and the branch system could be done through Circles of Power.

Land loans or even personal loans might also be a possibility, with the added "bonus" of personal plot for those who did not pay back debts in full (think debt collecting High Orcs...). The Medici family through this wealth was able to give money to government institutions and buy political positions, most notably in the Vatican. In our game, it could be changed to buying positions into Guilds and otherwise influencing Nobility (such as buying things for magical Guild to allow a system of Circles to be set-up in the first place). This could add another layer to the nobility structure and give Plot teams more to work with, as power conflicts could be a source of plot and hooks. Prime candidates to run the banks would be Hoblings.

As a player, the incentive to store coin in the bank would be guaranteed in-game protection from theft for coins (up to a certain limit). The merchant skill would then become more valuable as random production items found that would not otherwise be guaranteed protection can be converted to coin.

To help the game running side, the bank could be "open for business" only during Logistics, and that way, the information about the players funds is recorded and maintained all at the same time. Yes, it's an additional step for Logistics, but it's better than a bank PCs could use all day (which would happen, thus effectively taking out at least one person with access to player files for the weekend and that's no fun for anyone).

This could solve the issue of physical coinage and add more to the gameworld, so I think it could be a win-win.

Edit: Spelling/Grammar

The bank system looks good on paper but I cant see it working. Lets use my team as an example:

We have 500g to deposit, how much interest are you giving for the year, lets say 5% which is high, that means at then end of a year we would get 25g on our 500g dep. Now lets be real here, my team can easily obtain 25g in waaaayyyyy less time that 1 year.....no incentive for my team to deposit into the "bank".

Now if you sold food, and had auctions then there is a REAL incentive for PC to spend coin.
 
Back
Top