I really do think that magic item proliferation is making this problem worse as well. After all, when a heavy percentage of the game has Arcane Armor and magic weapons, no one is spending out any coin on blacksmithed goods. Same goes for 1/day items replacing potions and scrolls.
In Game Economy
- Thread starter Ash
- Start date
I'm making a trip out to Crossroads for THIS at some point in time.
Wraith said:
If you have the crafting skill and don't make any thing for that logistical period, you are a fool *Edit: Collective YOU*. You are making it at the cheapest cost possible. There is no reason to go a logistics w/o making any thing. At some point in time it will be useful.
Question, what does a magic weapon have to do with not going to logs and making some shields?
Inaryn said:
Real armor does not have to be terribly expensive. For example, you could rig up a brigandine with plastic plate (3 point per location -1 for non-metallic plate) for less than the cost of one event at most chapters, and other than the sound it will seem identical to steel armor. Lighter, too, and unable to rust. I would actually love to see more use of tagged armor instead of Arcane, but frankly AA is so much overwhelmingly better that nearly anyone with the gobbies to get one LCO'd to them will have it.
Inaryn
Knight
Wraith said:
I think you are making an assumption that someone has the time or knows someone that can do this. Beyond the fact that, if I'm going to wear plate, I want PLATE for it (which is completely a failing of our eval system)... there aren't a lot of armor smiths near me. (And the nearest chapter to mine is 12 hours minimum away.) All of them will work for fees, so fees have to be factored in. If I want something outside their expertise, I'm *going* to have to have it shipped... so factor shipping in too. Your cheap suit of brig just doubled or tripled in cost.
Don't get me wrong. I would absolutely love to see more people wearing real armor. *I'd* love to wear real armor. I think it adds a lot to the atmosphere of the game. But our system doesn't reward players making that effort. Our system rewards players dropping $$$.
Until the eval system for armor is changed, real armor is just not cost effective for a fair amount of players.
This is really a different discussion though, as I said the first time I hinted at it.
I'm seeing a lot of great ideas and view points in this thread, and after having read through it a couple times, I believe that the coin economy, production economy, magic item economy, and gobbie economy are all very much interconnected. That may sound obvious to some, but I believe there are others who are focusing too much on just one aspect of the game's overall economy.
It seems that several chapters are taking different approaches to the problems listed here. But how do we all get on the same page? Does one chapter step forward as a guinea pig to see if these ideas work? Should each chapter "go it alone" and do their own thing? Or we make these changes game-wide so that we're all operating on the same playing field?
So far, and this is just my opinion, I've seen a few promising, low-risk ideas. Here's just a couple of them.:
1) Remove auto-maxout. Attain max XP for the weekend only by paying the 1 silver/BP at the end of each event, OR by pulling an NPC shift of 4-6 hours.
This is how old Nero Int'l used to do it, and I still think it's a good idea. Plus, it scales with a player's level, mitigating the issue of taxing the "Have Not's" unfairly. This system would promote at least one of the following benefits:
(a) Bring coins back into the chapter to account for the living costs and experiences that occur in-between events, or "training costs" (Whichever you prefer.)
(b) Encourage more people to NPC for a portion of their event.
(c) If they don't pay coins or NPC, it will help to reduce the level inflation that the game is experiencing.
If your APL is level 10, and you have 30 PC's, then that's potentially 300 gold returning to the chapter every event. If half of them decide to pull an NPC shift to get XP maxout, then that's still 150 gold coming back in, AND you've generated 60 hours of NPCing for the event. And if some players do neither of these, then you've at least helped to slow down the level inflation that the game is experiencing. It's win-win-win.
2) Impose more limitations on purchasing magical items OOG with gobbies, if not removing gobbie-bought MI's altogether.
Having so many magical items in the game doesn't just devalue the coin, production, or magic item economy; it devalues Magic itself. These are supposed to
be creations of wonder and might, and have turned into mundane commodities that most people end up buying just to "keep up with the Joneses." But beyond that, who wants to spend production skills on potions or scrolls, when a rendered magic item performs several magic spells a day with only one tag and one phys-rep? If I had my way, MI would only be found or created IG by players.
3) Everything that Morganne wrote.
Those are all great ideas, and I'd love to see them in action.
4) Inaryn's suggestion of putting out PP resources.
I think the idea has merit, as this form of treasure is only usable to crafters, who would pay the coin costs to utilize it, and put them closer to the forefront of the games PP item economy, which is where they should be. In terms of logistics, I'm a HUGE fan of all production logistics being performed outside of events. Instead of every player going to logistics at 6 pm on Saturday, creating a drain on the chapter's personnel and time, they would get both day's production at check-in and be done with it.
"But I want to make weapons/potions/scrolls/traps/poisons during the event as need be."
Let's face it, the majority of people aren't getting most of the PP items from that second evening. Between gobbie-bought items, and the first day PP skills, the vast majority of created/purchased PP items come in to game at the beginning of the event anyway. Besides, where's your anvil at? Or your alchemy lab? Or your explosives stockpile? Just do everything at once, and give the logistics people a break. It makes more sense anyway.
Auctions, IBGA resources and experiences, and so on are all great ideas as well, and I sincerely hope to see them utilized.
It seems that several chapters are taking different approaches to the problems listed here. But how do we all get on the same page? Does one chapter step forward as a guinea pig to see if these ideas work? Should each chapter "go it alone" and do their own thing? Or we make these changes game-wide so that we're all operating on the same playing field?
So far, and this is just my opinion, I've seen a few promising, low-risk ideas. Here's just a couple of them.:
1) Remove auto-maxout. Attain max XP for the weekend only by paying the 1 silver/BP at the end of each event, OR by pulling an NPC shift of 4-6 hours.
This is how old Nero Int'l used to do it, and I still think it's a good idea. Plus, it scales with a player's level, mitigating the issue of taxing the "Have Not's" unfairly. This system would promote at least one of the following benefits:
(a) Bring coins back into the chapter to account for the living costs and experiences that occur in-between events, or "training costs" (Whichever you prefer.)
(b) Encourage more people to NPC for a portion of their event.
(c) If they don't pay coins or NPC, it will help to reduce the level inflation that the game is experiencing.
If your APL is level 10, and you have 30 PC's, then that's potentially 300 gold returning to the chapter every event. If half of them decide to pull an NPC shift to get XP maxout, then that's still 150 gold coming back in, AND you've generated 60 hours of NPCing for the event. And if some players do neither of these, then you've at least helped to slow down the level inflation that the game is experiencing. It's win-win-win.
2) Impose more limitations on purchasing magical items OOG with gobbies, if not removing gobbie-bought MI's altogether.
Having so many magical items in the game doesn't just devalue the coin, production, or magic item economy; it devalues Magic itself. These are supposed to
be creations of wonder and might, and have turned into mundane commodities that most people end up buying just to "keep up with the Joneses." But beyond that, who wants to spend production skills on potions or scrolls, when a rendered magic item performs several magic spells a day with only one tag and one phys-rep? If I had my way, MI would only be found or created IG by players.
3) Everything that Morganne wrote.
Those are all great ideas, and I'd love to see them in action.
4) Inaryn's suggestion of putting out PP resources.
I think the idea has merit, as this form of treasure is only usable to crafters, who would pay the coin costs to utilize it, and put them closer to the forefront of the games PP item economy, which is where they should be. In terms of logistics, I'm a HUGE fan of all production logistics being performed outside of events. Instead of every player going to logistics at 6 pm on Saturday, creating a drain on the chapter's personnel and time, they would get both day's production at check-in and be done with it.
"But I want to make weapons/potions/scrolls/traps/poisons during the event as need be."
Let's face it, the majority of people aren't getting most of the PP items from that second evening. Between gobbie-bought items, and the first day PP skills, the vast majority of created/purchased PP items come in to game at the beginning of the event anyway. Besides, where's your anvil at? Or your alchemy lab? Or your explosives stockpile? Just do everything at once, and give the logistics people a break. It makes more sense anyway.
Auctions, IBGA resources and experiences, and so on are all great ideas as well, and I sincerely hope to see them utilized.
Inaryn
Knight
GunFodder said:
How do you feel about people purchasing the scrolls and components with gobbies, then having to have the item crafted in game? This does mean that it's possible to fail at creating your gobbie item, or have something go slightly wonky (such as only usable by some race other than yours!) The item would still be LCO, since the make-up was purchased with gobbies.
Sarah, good question! The prizes that we put in are represented by tokens that will still fit easily through the machine (the opening is fairly small, since it's intended for little bits of candy). We wash everything between events so it's sanitary.
Using this system also encourages interaction between the tavern-keep who manages the prizes and has to look up what the tokens will represent, and the players... which ends up creating more cool moments between players, and also adds an element of realism to the whole thing.
Using this system also encourages interaction between the tavern-keep who manages the prizes and has to look up what the tokens will represent, and the players... which ends up creating more cool moments between players, and also adds an element of realism to the whole thing.
Libras
Scholar
This is how it's done in Ohio so Ritualists get consistent work and aren't held by the neck from the component/scroll policy for the event. We also offer some of the more eccentric scrolls on our pick list so your picks don't feel wasted once you feel you have enough combat-centric scrolls or know you'll need it at a later time / rainy day.Inaryn said:
Eh, even if they're being cast in-game, it's still part of the problem. Components, last I checked, averaged 1-3 gold each in the places I play. Using SOMN's list as an example, as I have it handy, a 30 point AA costs 600 goblins. As I recall, not having the scroll in front of me, 30 point AA is at least 20 components, plus the scroll.
Using what I figure to be an exchange rate on the low side :
20 components @ 1.5 gold each = 30 gold
1 scroll @ 5 gold each = 5 gold
So ~35 gold for 600 goblin stamps, or roughly 6 copper per stamp.
Heck of a lot more effect on the economy than 1 to 1 trade for production, isn't it.
Using what I figure to be an exchange rate on the low side :
20 components @ 1.5 gold each = 30 gold
1 scroll @ 5 gold each = 5 gold
So ~35 gold for 600 goblin stamps, or roughly 6 copper per stamp.
Heck of a lot more effect on the economy than 1 to 1 trade for production, isn't it.
Inaryn said:
I would certainly like this more than the current system of purchasing magical items outright with gobbies. I'd like it even better they still had to find the scrolls in-game.
I'll readily admit to having a bias against gobbie-purchased components, as well. From my experiences at Kzoo, it seemed to me that gobbie-purchased components had a HUGE part in destroying the coin and component economies. After all, with enough components you can do darn near anything. And if you can do that, who needs money? But I recognize that players need worthwhile things to spend their hard-earned gobbies on. It's just that allowing magic items to be purchased in droves is not effectively offset by simply labeling them "LCO."
I understand that LCO items and effects give chapters far more flexibility in creating content for their players, but excessive LCO policies have left me with some unfortunate personal experiences. My last impressions of Nero Int'l was of a system over-bloated with playtests and LCO effects. It often resulted in the "Big fish, Little pond" effect, in which players were loaded up with LCO magic items, LCO skills, and LCO transforms. But if they traveled to another chapter, they'd find themselves far less effective, and in some cases, rendered nearly impotent in comparison to their themselves at home. On the flip side, outside players traveling into such a chapter, or brand new characters, found themselves completely outclassed by the established locals. The net result: Fewer traveling players and fewer new players. While I don't see Alliance going to such an extreme any time soon, it remains a slippery slope. I would hate to see the same thing happen to this game.
Sorry, I know that was a bit of a tangent, but the more I study these kinds of systems, the more I come to realize a certain truth:
"Everything, effects Everything, effects Everything."
My bottom line: LCO should be used when necessary to further the local plot, not as a go-to option for allowing "anything goes" shopping sprees.
OK, I'm done now.
NH gobbied item policy requires a set cost for a scroll and the base number of components to cast it, and charges extra per additional component used to cast for greater effect. So by our policy, Arcane Armor costs 500 for the scroll and three components needed to make a 5 pt. suit, but 1400 for the additional sticks for a 30 pt. suit, almost three times as much. It cannot be extended without spending even more on a preserve or permanence, and for all of those scrolls (including the AA itself) we require that you NPC consistently for one full year (two for permanence, and each person can buy 1 permanence ever that they must also buy a spirit lock for) before being eligible to purchase them.