Is it too hard to spirit forge and/or race change?

Inaryn

Knight
Fair enough. I would challenge you then to rethink your method. It's rather complicated as currently written. Took me several read throughs to understand it and I'd like to think I haven't completed lost all intelligence to sleep deprivation!
 

jpariury

Duke
I haven't completed lost all intelligence to sleep deprivation!
Irony. :) <3

Total off the cuff: what if the process for unlearning were similar to the process for learning? Like, add in a skill that let's you "unteach" skills, give Biata and Stone Elves a price reduction on it, and you have to turn in tags at the end of an event, capped at some number of build?

Better yet, just cap it to one skill per day. Easier to manage.
 

Inaryn

Knight
Autocorrect. Smh.

That is much easier to grok imo.
 

norman b

Squire
Marshal
Total off the cuff: what if the process for unlearning were similar to the process for learning? Like, add in a skill that let's you "unteach" skills, give Biata and Stone Elves a price reduction on it, and you have to turn in tags at the end of an event, capped at some number of build?

Better yet, just cap it to one skill per day. Easier to manage.
How would this work with spell levels, specifically if the second part was true? I want to unlearn 9th level spells and I am a 4 column scholar. I now have to drop 8th, 7th, and 6th level spells to keep the tear drop and not have a 4 column up to 8th.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
You unlearn spell slots and not just spell levels?
 
I didn't want to debate nitty gritty too much, but I definitely think any re-learning has to be build-based, not skill based. Skills are not equal in cost, and it is my opinion that re-building / respeccing / (whatever you want to call this) should take the same time for two characters of the same build total, regardless of character skills.

And, yes, if Spirit Forge ever does get a "lesser" version, I also think that should be build based, as opposed to skill based.

-MS

P.S. - I originally picked 15 build because it matched the starting build of a character. Since then I have realized that it is also exactly equal to 1 prof (+pre-req crit attacks) for a fighter, 1 backstab (+pre-req back attacks) for a rogue, and between 3 and 6 spell slots for a scholar. That is remarkably convenient and likely to make transitioning quite easy, for many characters.
 

norman b

Squire
Marshal
P.S. - I originally picked 15 build because it matched the starting build of a character. Since then I have realized that it is also exactly equal to 1 prof (+pre-req crit attacks) for a fighter, 1 backstab (+pre-req back attacks) for a rogue, and between 3 and 6 spell slots for a scholar. That is remarkably convenient and likely to make transitioning quite easy, for many characters.
Thats what I thought you meant for that :p
 

jpariury

Duke
How would this work with spell levels
What Ben said, which is much the same way you would "unlearn prof" - you're only shedding the single spell or tier, not the entirety of the skill.

I didn't want to debate nitty gritty too much, but I definitely think any re-learning has to be build-based, not skill based.
So, the thought I was having about that it that means that it's harder to unlearn a skill than it is to learn it. Specifically, sure, a fighter can unlearn a prof and it's underlying crits in one event, but it takes a templar two events to unlearn the skill, and a scholar even longer? That just strikes me as weird. It also means, as was noted in the original suggestion, that you end up with a great deal of flux in cards at the lower levels. From a storytelling perspective, it strikes me as disruptive that you can show up to one event with one whole set of skills, then at the next one be completely different. Even in the next couple of events, your skillset is subject to some heavy fluctuation. Keeping it at one skill per day makes it a more gradual shift, and is easier on a logistical level - they're already looking at tags and manipulating your character card as it is.
 

Inaryn

Knight
What jp said about logistics. I may be not doing it anymore regularly again, but I know what kind of pain that is. Which is what I mean when I say simpler.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
What Ben said, which is much the same way you would "unlearn prof" - you're only shedding the single spell or tier, not the entirety of the skill.


So, the thought I was having about that it that means that it's harder to unlearn a skill than it is to learn it. Specifically, sure, a fighter can unlearn a prof and it's underlying crits in one event, but it takes a templar two events to unlearn the skill, and a scholar even longer? That just strikes me as weird. It also means, as was noted in the original suggestion, that you end up with a great deal of flux in cards at the lower levels. From a storytelling perspective, it strikes me as disruptive that you can show up to one event with one whole set of skills, then at the next one be completely different. Even in the next couple of events, your skillset is subject to some heavy fluctuation. Keeping it at one skill per day makes it a more gradual shift, and is easier on a logistical level - they're already looking at tags and manipulating your character card as it is.
As a scholar with 6 columns, most of my "skills" are 1 - 5 pts (Formal and Spells). In theory, I could refund 1 Formal per game, but it'll be a long time before that matters. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. I do think 3 pts is a bit too slow, though.

If we went skill-based, I think it would make more sense for 2 - 3 per event, rather than 1.
 
So, the thought I was having about that it that means that it's harder to unlearn a skill than it is to learn it. Specifically, sure, a fighter can unlearn a prof and it's underlying crits in one event, but it takes a templar two events to unlearn the skill, and a scholar even longer? That just strikes me as weird. It also means, as was noted in the original suggestion, that you end up with a great deal of flux in cards at the lower levels. From a storytelling perspective, it strikes me as disruptive that you can show up to one event with one whole set of skills, then at the next one be completely different. Even in the next couple of events, your skillset is subject to some heavy fluctuation. Keeping it at one skill per day makes it a more gradual shift, and is easier on a logistical level - they're already looking at tags and manipulating your character card as it is.
There are a lot of pieces to what you said, so I'll respond to the various pieces individually.

Assuming the 15 build suggestion, it is never harder to unlearn a specific skill than it is to learn it. You never gain 15 build in a weekend (unless your first ever weekend is 4 days long or longer).

As for how long it takes, I'm okay with a fighter taking less time (effort) to unlearn a prof. It took the fighter less time (effort) to learn it in the first place. Comparatively, different classes are unlearning at a rate that is comparable to the rate they learn.

The low level flux is a reasonable concern, but I would counter with two things. 1) I doubt many low level characters will try to take advantage of this, especially since you still need teacher cards to make it all work. 2) Characters simply don't stay low level in the Alliance system for long (depending on your definition of "low"). Given the fact that most players NPC before bringing a character in (thus it doesn't start at 1st) and most players get monthly blankets from goblin stamps, true low level characters are few and far between because they tend to start higher (than in the old days) and progress faster.

As for the last point, I don't think it is any harder for logistics to remove 1 - 2 skills (as a player requests), than it is to remove the specific set of skills (costing 15 build or less) that a player requests. I am pretty sure that is roughly equal complexity.


My final comment isn't a direct reference to anything you said, but more of a mindset statement. I am of the opinion that if a player isn't enjoying the way they spent their build, the Alliance should make a reasonable effort to fix that situation. The current system is designed based on the classic D&D early edition mindset of "you have to live with your character creation mistakes." Many people scoff at MMOs for catering to players on character creation decisions (with things like respecs), but it is a decision based on trying to make the experience as enjoyable as possible and not to "punish" players for a lack of system mastery.

15 build per event is still pretty slow if you are level 30, but at least it isn't molasses. If you aren't enjoying your character build, you can change it completely in about 3 years (roughly 1 year per 10 levels). Even at 30, you will be transitioned far enough in about a year and a half that you should be less frustrated (and odds are that you actually like at least a portion of your build choices, so probably faster than that).

On the other hand, 2 skills a game is molasses. At that speed, even a level 10 character (which I think this system is near the sweet spot for my recommendation) would take almost 3 years to transition and anything beyond that might as well be infinite time. That is not, in my opinion, a system designed to improve player enjoyment of the game. The transition is slow and often frustrating. For example, an orc fighter would give up a prof and a crit attack and wouldn't even gain enough build to learn read & write. Thus, the character simply lost skills with absolutely no benefit after one event. Part of the advantage to the system I suggested is that it tends to provide tangible benefits every event (every two events at worst). Depending on the transition occurring, it could be almost a year before a player saw tangible benefits with only 2 removed an event.

-MS
 

jpariury

Duke
At some level, we come down to a disagreement philosophically about what should be involved in unlearning a skill. I think, in general, it should be easier for a scholar to unlearn a prof than it is for a fighter - narratively, the class in some manner implies a natural lean towards a given skill. It's easy for a deskjockey to unlearn grappling techniques. Otoh, it's pretty hard for a professional wrestler to do the same - the skills fast become instinct. My proposal hits the midpoint on that by making it a static expenditure. I'm also pretty okay with it taking three years for a tenth level character to completely unlearn their skillset - imo, a complete rewrite should take time. I generally think minor tweaks should be mildly easy, which a skill-per-day outlay does, and it retains the value of the ritual/catalyst combo. 7.5 build per eventday is great if you're in a chapter/event dense region, less so if you're more remote. If you're hitting four eventdays (maybe two fair days and an event, maybe two events, ymmv) per month, your 30th level character can do 1 complete rewrite every ten months, which, imm, is far too fast. It should take a long time for a long-time character to completely change their layout (magic notwithstanding).
 
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Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal

Inaryn

Knight
At some level, we come down to a disagreement philosophically about what should be involved in unlearning a skill. I think, in general, it should be easier for a scholar to unlearn a prof than it is for a fighter - narratively, the class in some manner implies a natural lean towards a given skill. It's easy for a deskjockey to unlearn grappling techniques. Otoh, it's pretty hard for a professional wrestler to do the same - the skills fast become instinct. My proposal hits the midpoint on that by making it a static expenditure. I'm also pretty okay with it taking three years for a tenth level character to completely unlearn their skillset - imo, a complete rewrite should take time. I generally think minor tweaks should be mildly easy, which a skill-per-day outlay does, and it retains the value of the ritual/catalyst combo. 7.5 build per eventday is great if you're in a chapter/event dense region, less so if you're more remote. If you're hitting four eventdays (maybe two fair days and an event, maybe two events, ymmv) per month, your 30th level character can do 1 complete rewrite every ten months, which, imm, is far too fast. It should take a long time for a long-time character to completely change their layout (magic notwithstanding).
This. In my experience, players are more often seeking to undo one or two choices that turned out to be poor decisions for whatever reason rather than redoing their entire card.

And, just like teaching, I support this being an interactive solution, whether that be unlearning or modifying the spirit forge ritual.
 

Jim

Scholar
I disagree with this stance wholeheartedly, because frankly not everyone cares to NPC, or has time to do so. I think I've NPC'd three events in the last decade, simply because I don't get to play that often, so when I can swing time off I PC. I've also had tens of thousands of goblin stamps over that period from building out requested weapons, props, and other donations.

There are a lot of people who make strong contributions to the game but don't NPC. Gating parts of the system behind NPCing is very much not something I think we should be encouraging.
Can we maybe get this split off in another topic? I think it's important to look at making NPCing more inviting and I don't think doing so is unfair to those who choose not to NPC; not everyone can afford to pay-no-play but we allow that. Seattle used to have woman with effectively MS NPC for us as well as make costuming, so I'm pretty certain most people can NPC if they want to, it is just a matter of making it a priority or not.
 

Avaran

Baron
I'm not entirely confident that the difference is "vastly" more complicated, and while I don't do character updates on the Logistics team, I've seen them done, and 15 Build an event would be pretty much a non-issue. Actually, I'm not exactly sure what's complicated about it. This wouldn't be any more or less difficult than any other character update.

More importantly, I'd much prefer a series of minor build changes being done -between events- than being done -during events-, which is what would occur if we put it on rituals.
Here is a good test (just spit-balling here):

Start writing up the text that would explain this 15-build-per-event idea that would go in the ARB.
Next, find someone who has both the time and knowledge to re-design the character DB to accommodate the change 'cause that is what this would entail - a new DB (yay!).
Get logistics to deal with yet another thing on a much broader scale. Sure, they'd still have to with a ritual scroll solution, but it'd be far less complex and the general steps are already in place.

To test the other idea:
Update the scroll text to include additional levels/difficulties.
Maybe(?) minor updates to the character DB? Unsure. Would depend on whether or not using a "spirit forge" in the DB would be an acceptable accounting measure, or if the owners would want a separately trackable "minor" spirit forge option.
Distribute updated ritual Db to chapters.

Both would have to go through owner approval, which makes that part of it fairly equal in terms of task lists.

Granted, they are already working on a rules update, so it may not be as terrible as it would in another point in time when no massive rules revamp underway.
 
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Here is a good test (just spit-balling here):
Avaran, I have never used the logistics database, so I have a question for you.

Without making any changes to the database, is it possible to remove a skill from a character and return the build spent on that skill to unspent build?

-MS

P.S. - Anyone who has a full working knowledge of the database can answer, not just Avaran.
 

Auric

Administrator
Alliance General Manager
Alliance Logistics
Avaran, I have never used the logistics database, so I have a question for you.

Without making any changes to the database, is it possible to remove a skill from a character and return the build spent on that skill to unspent build?

-MS

P.S. - Anyone who has a full working knowledge of the database can answer, not just Avaran.
Yes.
 

Inaryn

Knight
Avaran, I have never used the logistics database, so I have a question for you.

Without making any changes to the database, is it possible to remove a skill from a character and return the build spent on that skill to unspent build?

-MS

P.S. - Anyone who has a full working knowledge of the database can answer, not just Avaran.
Yes. It's easy. But half build isn't something that can easily be tracked by the db since it relies on the xp calculus. Understand, we tend to run a lot more faire days out here. That could get nightmareish FAST.
 
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