Is it too hard to spirit forge and/or race change?

Ah. I think I see the concern that I unintentionally created. I never intended the half build to actually be treated as a half build. I assumed it would be rounded (based on my experience with modules and faire days in the past, most likely down). So, a faire day would actually only allow 7 build removed. A weekend would allow 15. A long weekend would allow 22 build. A 4 day event would allow 30 build. Etc.

I used 7.5 build for simplicity, without actually intending the 1/2 to ever really be implemented. I definitely take blame for that confusion. I just should have written "round down" somewhere in my initial description. Yep, I am the moron here. *sigh*

-MS
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Eh, we all have foot in mouth syndrome some times. I know I do! Don't take it so harsh.
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
What if you just make it a round number per logistics period? Say 5 or 7? If 7.5 (rounded down) is what you originally intended, it might be easier from a math prospective to just call it 7 build.
 

Avaran

Baron
Ah. I think I see the concern that I unintentionally created. I never intended the half build to actually be treated as a half build. I assumed it would be rounded (based on my experience with modules and faire days in the past, most likely down). So, a faire day would actually only allow 7 build removed. A weekend would allow 15. A long weekend would allow 22 build. A 4 day event would allow 30 build. Etc.
Ah. I see. That makes more sense.

My remaining concern would be tracking/accounting-related, but I am not familiar enough with the DB to know how easy/hard it would be to implement something like that into the existing DB. I *can* say that I would want something like this (mostly) done automatically. I can just see a tired logistics person inadvertently subtracting build multiple times because of mis-clicks (I had a mouse once that would sometimes randomly double or even triple-click on input even with a single physical button press, for example) and fatigue, etc.
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Would this be banked automatically as you play? Or is this something that the player would have to request each time?

Example: Franklin has been playing his character Stabby The Clown for two years (around 12 events) and has never used his buyback for build. He decides to make Stabby a scholar (and call himself Blasty) instead of a rogue. Does he let Logistics know that he wants to start buying back build now or does he have a bank of 180 build to just flip around immediately because he's played 12 weekend events?
 
Okay, we've reached the point where it only seems fair to offer a definitive proposal. I will offer one (with the caveat that I am leaving out NPC benefits because I am not familiar enough with how NPCs get teaching cards in games other than HQ to decide whether this can potentially work when players NPC or whether it just leaves players in the lurch).

Proposal:
At the conclusion of any event (other than modules), you may remove any number of skills (minimum one*) from your character sheet with a total build cost no greater than 7.5 build per day of the event (rounded down). After removing skills, you must still qualify for all remaining skills on your character sheet. The build previously spent on those skills is returned to you as unspent build. You may then spend that unspent build and any earned build from that event as normal.

* = The minimum of one is to deal with extremely expensive (though highly implausible) skills like a fighter having a secondary pyramid 9th level spell or a scholar having weapon master. It also exists so that the system is friendly to games that tend to run more faire days and fewer weekends.

I believe this proposal does not require any changes to the logistics database, requires no extra tracking, and is remarkably easy to understand and implement.

-MS
 
Would this be banked automatically as you play? Or is this something that the player would have to request each time?

Example: Ben has been playing his character Stabby The Clown for two years (around 12 events) and has never used his buyback for build. He decides to make Stabby a scholar (and call himself Blasty) instead of a rogue. Does he let Logistics know that he wants to start buying back build now or does he have a bank of 180 build to just flip around immediately because he's played 12 weekend events?
You can see the proposal I just wrote, which I think fully answers your question, but the intention of this is to allow a modest speed transition, rather than to ever allow a full instant change (except technically after the first event when you can completely rewrite anyway based on current rules).

-MS
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Other than clearing up the wording allowing a Weapon Master scholar to remove said skill ( it reads a bit confusing to me) I like it. Query: does removing the skill remove it completely so that it has to be re-taught?
 

jpariury

Duke
Not a fan for the reasons I already noted: too fast, too much, too easy to unlearn your chosen class. If you lowered the numbers, you'd potentially run into the issue you cite (large build-buys can't be unlearned). Best balance for my concerns is simply 1 skill per eventday.
 

norman b

Squire
Marshal
To help clarify from a logistics stand point, the DB has the skill listed, then a place for ranks bought into said skill, then the total cost for build based on your class and ranks placed for easy reference. So stray clicks is not so much of a problem. Also, deleting one skill or a total up to 15 (or any number really) is not much of a problem. The problem is, players will be upset that they forgot to email you to have you apply the update. Not upset at logistics per se but upset at themselves for forgetting. This happens already for spending build. People forget all the time. There would definitely have to be a timeline for them to do this. Such as 2 weeks after the conclusion of the weekend/game day.
 

Dal

Newbie
I believe that the ritual solution is the wrong solution. It is a Have vs. Have Not solution, and the game already has too many of those. Having thought on this for 24 hours, I would recommend making a change that allows players to "slide" build after every PC'd game.

The inspiration for this idea is the current rule that allows a player to completely respend their build after their first game ever. Accordingly, my suggestion is this:

After a weekend, a player can remove up to 15 build worth of skills, turning it back into unspent build. New skills can then be bought (following all applicable teaching rules) with that build and with any other free build (including build gained that weekend).
[The actual value is 7.5 build a day, so that faire days and long weekends can also be accommodated]

How this plays out: Early in a character's career, a character can completely switch build expenditures quickly (2-3 events). But this probably won't come up much since most PCs don't start considering a Spirit Forge until roughly level 10. At level 10, it would take 7 events (slightly more than a year for the average chapter) to fully transition to a new skill set. In the mean time, the character would be somewhat hampered by a transitioning build (though the fluid class system that is already in place would help with this).

Also, because it is a transition, the change would seem more natural in-game. Imagine a level 10 fighter transitioning to caster. The fighter starts swinging 8s. After the first weekend, the fighter swings 7s and learns to cast a single 1st level spell (and can now read and write). After the second weekend, the fighter swings 6s and can cast a small pyramid. After the second weekend, the fighter swings 5s and cast cast a slightly bigger pyramid. Around weekend four (it might have happened last weekend, I didn't do the math), fluid classing kicks in and the fighter is now a templar with roughly even sword skills and castings skills. Over the next three weekends, the character loses all weapon skills and ends up with a 4 column and a little high magic.

It is very organic and not too abrupt (except at low levels where it isn't a big deal that it is abrupt). Also, keep in mind that the character is still gaining build after every event, so the character is actually gaining about 18 or so build worth of casting skills each event rather than 15.

Just to be clear, I would still keep Spirit Forge in the game, allowing players to spend massive amounts of resources to make the change instantly rather than at a slow burn.

-MS

I'm new so take my opinion for what it's worth but this idea of mike's seems grate!
 

Muir

Fighter
To help clarify from a logistics stand point, the DB has the skill listed, then a place for ranks bought into said skill, then the total cost for build based on your class and ranks placed for easy reference. So stray clicks is not so much of a problem. Also, deleting one skill or a total up to 15 (or any number really) is not much of a problem. The problem is, players will be upset that they forgot to email you to have you apply the update. Not upset at logistics per se but upset at themselves for forgetting. This happens already for spending build. People forget all the time. There would definitely have to be a timeline for them to do this. Such as 2 weeks after the conclusion of the weekend/game day.
It seems to me that this would be best served as a DB modification, then, to add an automatic tracker that ticks over with allowable build removal when you update a character sheet to add build from an event attended. Seems like that would be the lowest overhead work addition for the logistics teams.
 

Tyson

Scholar
Gettysburg Staff
Speaking as logistics staff, I would much rather this be something limited to a once per year activity done by email between a player and their character's home chapter's logistics. Doing it on a per-event basis is too often.

I often have a 1 week turnaround for characters - someone blanketed or played our event, and I need to get them credited with their home chapter or transferred out for an event happening the weekend after ours. The last thing I need is to also have to track who is unspending what build, getting that information back to their home chapters, which they then need to get updated and sent out possibly to a third chapter in the matter of about 4 days. Less if we want to give the player a window to actually spend the newly-freed build before that event.

And it all assumes they don't request to unlearn a skill that accidentally makes them an illegal character, which is going to slow the process down even more.
 

Cipher

Newbie
Sorry for necroing the subject, but I spent some time thinking on it and feel an incessant urge to share my 2 coppers. What if a skill could be unlearned by rolling back enough xp to lose this much BP? You are still balanced to how fast you can gain BP, you are losing the BP, but you can get them back at exactly the same rate as others of your level, technically this could roll back all the way to new character stuck not only with the deaths but with the MIs acquired at higher levels, so some sort of limit to how often and how easily this can be done is probably in order. For example you can roll back a skill worth of levels, but you cannot do that again until you re-gain the xp of the rolled back levels.
 
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