Magic Items

Hey, I wanted to say a general comment which is that #1 I REALLY apreceate all the work the head people go to. I'm not going to critisize them in public like what happened. #2 I was also really enjoying the discusion about magic items. Can I re-open a topic on that subject matter?


In any case the most sensible comment about magic items that I think I've heard is that of slowly phasing out magic items in general. In my mind this could really even extend I'll admit slowly to cloaks and banes. To be honest those magic abilities seem to take away the point of buying racial abilities since you can just pay IG cash instead of precious bp to buy them.

I just mentioned adding fighter skills to the magic items to point out that its not really fair for only scholars to have their skills duplicated. Yes I agree that what’s the point of fighters when you can have an "activate eviscerate" but at this point with regards to life, prison, and all the other powerful spells basically what’s the point of scholars since those items do exist.

And there is just one other brief thing that has always been a little bit sad to me when it comes to regards with magic items. 9th level scrolls and potions don't exist specifically I thought so that there was a point for scholars to get those spells in spell columns and trees. Since those items can and do show up as activate magic item that whole point seems subverted.

As for the difference between "I grant you the power of a Magic Armor" and "Activate Magic Armor" just time how fast you can say those. Especially when you consider that fighters in general can swing pretty darn fast. Also for spell duals I can barely get off "I grant you the power of a Spell Shield" before someone can finish another web or confine incant but "Activate Spell Shield" whole different story. Its a matter of numbers that Activates are allot faster, not really debate or practice at using spells well. =\


Hey everyone, please lets keep the discusion to magic items? =)
 
Dreamingfurther said:
Hey, I wanted to say a general comment which is that #1 I REALLY apreceate all the work the head people go to. I'm not going to critisize them in public like what happened. #2 I was also really enjoying the discusion about magic items. Can I re-open a topic on that subject matter?
I think you just did :lol:
 
I sugested that they add a Use magic Item skill
The Number of items you could use and the Power of these Items would be Determined by the skill
and of corse the Cost of the skill would depend on your class

So the Idea if you have Use Magic Item 3... you could use 3 magic Items with a power total of 3 (3 1 power items or )
if you had Use Magic Item 8 you could Use 1 eight power level Item (mighty item indeed) or 2 Four power or two 3 power items and a 2 power item ect...

The idea behind this is that even if you were handed a mighty Sword as a Newbie you might not be able to use it and if you Hoard items like a red dragon you would have to decide what items you would equip at a given time.

The Skill could cost more for fighters then Scholars so the fighter would haev to chouse to give up some precious BP to be able to use a lot of items and go it alone or have a friend Scholar with him

just an Idea

FW
 
Thats actually a really cool idea. Especially when you consider that alot of other games (well D&D in particular) have a use magic item skill...

Oh I guess me asking to open the topic was a bit retorical but I guess I was trying to say I hope its okay I did this? =)
 

Robb G

Baron
that is an idea i like alot. and if not that, then just modify the existing rules regarding magic items to work like scrolls and potions.

that would mean no one without a rank in earth magic could ever use earth or necromantic items, and no one without a rank in celestial could ever use a celestial item. and if you use the whole 4 step or 2 step or whatever plan, only those really powerful in that school of magic could ever use all of the powerful items in that school.

to me it makes sense.. the item is magical.. only someone who really knows his magic should be able to figure out how to use the thing..
 

jpariury

Duke
Robb Graves said:
that is an idea i like alot. and if not that, then just modify the existing rules regarding magic items to work like scrolls and potions.

that would mean no one without a rank in earth magic could ever use earth or necromantic items, and no one without a rank in celestial could ever use a celestial item.
This is not how potions and scrolls work. Anyone may use a potion, regardless of skill. Scrolls may be used by someone with 4 less levels in casting that the level of the scroll.

While the idea of creating a "magic item use" skill may seem to have some merit, it really only works at the lower- to mid- level limited games. Unfortunately, the Alliance game nationwide has grown beyond that, by and large. A substantive change of this nature would almost certainly require (by player demand) a partial rewrite, in which case you end up with people who maybe have a column less, or one less prof.

The best solution is to ditch the transferable build rituals, and make them unusable while under a "no skills effect".
 
Ultimately in the end I think that the best move would be to I'll admit slowly start phasing out powerful magic items especially... I'm never going to be a big fan of just unilaterally changing things even though I'm pretty new to the game. I understand that there are well established really high level players who have worked really hard for what they have. But honestly the biggest problem with magic items stated so far is the cross build supper man-do everything they can potentially create.

That said I don't know if a magic items skill would necessarily fix this issue. More inventive magic items that did stuff build can't would be cool. I'm just curious what sort of ideas do people have for things like that? Because I would be apt to worry they might end up just be OP'ed... =\ But that could just be my angle, in the game I play with my friends we are very paranoid and careful about magic item/ritual population in our game just because of the remote yet viable ability it could have to really break the game.

But one thing that does seem to make sense to me is the idea of magic items specific to class staying more in that class. Fighters getting DA's and AA and scholars getting the activate life's and such. Obviously the whole thing is still very tricky but one does have to consider that magical items have always been and always will be a very cool "icon" when it comes to fantasy worlds with magic. =)

I still have to say though the basic problem of "Activate <<spell name>>" vs. "<<incant>> <<spell name>>" remains and I wish something could be figured out, because it does seem like it makes mem'ed spells really a slight bit weaker in the rush of combat. =\
 

Robb G

Baron
jpariury said:
Robb Graves said:
that is an idea i like alot. and if not that, then just modify the existing rules regarding magic items to work like scrolls and potions.

that would mean no one without a rank in earth magic could ever use earth or necromantic items, and no one without a rank in celestial could ever use a celestial item.
This is not how potions and scrolls work. Anyone may use a potion, regardless of skill. Scrolls may be used by someone with 4 less levels in casting that the level of the scroll.

While the idea of creating a "magic item use" skill may seem to have some merit, it really only works at the lower- to mid- level limited games. Unfortunately, the Alliance game nationwide has grown beyond that, by and large. A substantive change of this nature would almost certainly require (by player demand) a partial rewrite, in which case you end up with people who maybe have a column less, or one less prof.

The best solution is to ditch the transferable build rituals, and make them unusable while under a "no skills effect".
to work "like" scrolls and potions. as in, an in game mechanic that requires build to use. the potion thing probably wasn't a good exmaple, but I was referring to being able to identify potions, not use them.

I think the idea still has merit. ultimately any rules change is going to piss someone off, and because we're basically dealing with an imbalance of power often times those who will be the most pissed are going to be the ones with the power. I'd suggest making all existing items exempt from the new rules set as to not piss off the old timers and begin to phase them out. This could be done with a new modified tag for M.I.s. It doesn't bother me that it would cost more build to be able to use what is right now free, because ultimately fixing the system will be better for the game.

If not a kind of cumlitive build cost like the leveling idea, then it could also be a one time build cost like other skills. costing less for scholars and templars than fighters and the like. IG, it would represent the time the fighter class took away from his studies of his normal skills to learn a bit about the magic items, etc. in order to use them. So yes, it's expensive for him to do it, but it makes sense (to me anyway) that it would be.
 

Ezri

Knight
HQ Staff
Making it so that people can no longer use the things they already have will be a customer service nightmare. Creating a skill to use them (while that would be an ok idea if we were just starting - I've had that thought myself) will just mean that you'll have to allow people a re-build if they request it, so you've accomplished nothing, as the people with the "pocket scholars" just had to sell back skills to be able to do what they've been doing all along.

Here's my thinking:

You can do one of two things - make magic items harder for combat classes to use, or add a benefit to it that only casters get.

The former will upset lots of people, while the latter could be a big boon to casters.

I have some ideas, but I'm not sure that they're good ones, I'd like some feedback. For the purpose of discussion when I say caster I mean somebody with the skill to cast a spell - which could be a scholar, adept, templar, or any other class that has put build into a spell tree of either school:

Idea #1 - If a caster activates an item in his or her primary school, they may choose to activate it silently. This would still require an OOG verbal of "casting <spellname>." The verbal is not in-game, and may be made while the character is silenced, paralyzed or otherwise incapacitated (yet still conscious). The verbal represents an audible surge of magic coming from the caster, much like the damage swing "2 normal" represents the sounds of battle, swords clashing etc. ("casting" is a placeholder - if somebody has an idea for a better verbal let me know) Ex: Aislynn has a purify item. Because her primary school is Earth, she can activate it while under the effects of a silence to rid herself of the effect.

Idea #2 - A caster who activates an item in his or her primary school may choose to ignore all flaws in said item. Ex: Cedric has a 2/day dragon's breath item, but it has a flaw that only allows it to be used while sitting. Because Cedric's primary casting school is Celestial, he has enough knowledge of the spell to be able to use the item and ignore these restrictions.

Still pondering more, but thought I'd kick these around to start.

**Edited to Add bits from the old thread on other solutions to the Magic Item debate

-Stop allowing permanent NPC items (HQ already does this).

-When items go out of treasure policy, do not put out items with very powerful spells in them, except perhaps where they make plot sense (like a racial artifact or something). No prisons, lifes, circles, dragons breaths, purifies etc. out of items. I'd rather see 8 disarm items than a dragon's breath. You want the big boom? Go to a caster. It means there are more items overall, but it also means that the big spells remain the realm of the caster.

-Player-made items obviously can still be permanenced, or have 9th level spells or whatever. The rules on these would not change.

Eventually most of the other items will get used up, expire or otherwise make their way out of the game. I'm sure some will hang around, but over time things will shift. No, it's not an immediate fix, which is what I'm sure we would like. But sometimes those sort of changes create more problems that we didn't forsee.
 

Alor

Scholar
Gettysburg Staff
not a caster, but those are two very cool ideas...
 
The idea of making a scholars (and half classes to some exstent) better with items than other classes seems really sensible to me. The trick would be getting it right so that it didn't bump up scholars to make them better suddenly because of this ability.

I would wonder would this exstend to DA weapons and AA armor pieces to give fighters more of a bonus to use magic items aligned with skills they can aquire through build.

And how would this manifest with cloaks and banes? I'm curious what people think of those, doesn't anyone else sortof think they double racial skills at all?


Although I agree that treasure generated magic items really shouldn't be the powerfull stuff how much of the magic item pool is treasure generated vs. high lvl pc made? Although in principle I always agree with the idea of letting PC cast rits be better than generated stuff.
 

Ezri

Knight
HQ Staff
IMHO if a player saves up enough scrolls and comps and a caster is strong enough to make it, so be it. Right now even the uber items kind of get only a second glance because items as a whole are so prevalent.

Cloaks and banes would continue to work across the board.

DA's already are only used by combat or hybrid classes 99% of the time, (as are any other weapon-based ritual buff - reavers, auras etc.) so there's your balance on that end. You want the nifty glowy weapon? Spend enough build to be able to wield it. That's kinda the issue with magic items - I can't use that nifty sword, but anybody can activate an item. My ideas would hopefully balance that out by giving people who spent build in magic an added benefit, just like those who spent build in weapons get the benefit of using a magic (flame, earth etc) weapon.

And as it stands now, only fighters and scholars with lots of ritual levels can wear the max suit of Arcane Armor anyway, so I'd say that's already pretty well set. One way or another other classes have to put build in to get the max 30 - scholars just have the option to use rit levels instead of Wear Extra Arnor (though the rit levels do not allow you to wear physical armor which WEA does).

And thanks for the ego stroke Robb :)
 
Ezri said:
DA's already are only used by combat or hybrid classes 99% of the time, (as are any other weapon-based ritual buff - reavers, auras etc.) so there's your balance on that end.
Please keep in mind that this is only a chapter specific case. On the WC, the opposite is true. All the big Uber items are in the hands of Scholars. DA, Reaver, Earth Aura, all on the casters that made them.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
The issue with giving scholars a better use for magic items is that it still does not rectify the problem of people who have tons of items.

In my opinion, making it so scholars can ignore flaws or activate under different circumstances will not limit this issue.

If its a good enough item, fighter guy is not going to give up the item just because he has to sing the incant. He's just going to sing it. And if Scholar-man comes up and says, "You know, I can use that without singing." Fighter Guy is just going to say, "No you can't, its mine."

I honestly think that applying some kind of limit to the number of magic items a person can carry and use is going to be the solution.

I wouldn't make it a seperate skill. I'd make it dependant upon other skills & I'd make it caster friendly.

You get X number of items that you can use, and then the first time you purchase a 1st, 5th, & 9th level spell (of each school, so people who dual school get more of a benefit) it increases X by one. Not +1 for each spell of that level, just for the first one.

Rituals cast directly on your spirit don't count, but spirit linked items do.

It'd be a limit on the number of items, not the power of said items or the number of rituals on them, as that encourages people to make their own.

I'm also in favor of no more items for NPCing at all. Give people LCO scrolls & components, so they can make their own. Maybe keep the option of getting low level spells as times ever items. It force more use of formal levels IG.

The ritual system needs a bunch of work as well, not in the "Lets take the rituals out" sort of way (though that may need to be done as well), but more in tweaks to how the system itself works.

I think that magic items (except maye tiny ones) should not go out as treasure at all & that the number of scrolls and components that go out should be doubled or tripled to compensate for that.

I'd be in favor of assigning a produciton value to components, catalysts and rit scrolls, and sending them out as part of the main treasure policy (with an increase in the treasure policy to match up with it all).
 

Ezri

Knight
HQ Staff
obcidian_bandit said:
Ezri said:
DA's already are only used by combat or hybrid classes 99% of the time, (as are any other weapon-based ritual buff - reavers, auras etc.) so there's your balance on that end.
Please keep in mind that this is only a chapter specific case. On the WC, the opposite is true. All the big Uber items are in the hands of Scholars. DA, Reaver, Earth Aura, all on the casters that made them.
I see your point there, but the point I was trying to make is that even if a scholar decides to keep the nifty weapon for themselves, they still had to spend build to be able to use it. Fighters do not have to spend build to cast spells out of items, and therein lies the imbalance.
 

MKing

Scout
I think you should just set a number and keep it that way for MI Slots...just say...no more than 5 at a time...if you want to change 1 out then you need to spend a min. or so switching over the MI tags from active to inactive and then Inactive to active for the "new" MI, this way..if you need to look at it this way..means everyone gets limited...no is left out or gets any bouness for being a caster or fighter...this will also lead..hopfully..to teams share MI with other members of their teams or with other players... :?: :!:

just my thoughts....

~Matt K.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
doing a 5 item limit with a minute long swap out doesn't actually do anything to limit magic item use though...

and it would be a marshalling nightmare
 
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