Magic Items

[Duke Frost]

We will now send all customer service complaints to Dreaming Further.

Scott

Your reply was reasonable until this part Scott, there is no need to be snarky when answering an honest question, but there is always a balance in any discussion so I'll try to present some other points.

Potential Example A : "Jim" has been playing for 4 years, putting his character at risk and has taken 3 deaths but has finally gotten his 4th prof, eviserate and all those fun toys. Jim then runs into Joe, Joe donated an old(ish) computer and got credited for $700 worth of gobbies in donation, and some cash and npc'd once. Jim and Joe meet, Joe with his arcane armor, +2 damage reaver, 2xday life item, and 4xday cure light, not only keeps up with Jim, but has the equivalent build of Jim, minus an eviserate. Joe is probably sitting at 25-32 build depending on the event he went to and assuming a gobby blanket. This gets Joe all his basic skills (Weapon master, shield, florentine, whatever) his weapon gives him 30 points worth of WPs (36 if he's a templar) his 2x a day life item is the equivalent of skills that take about 50 build to bottle rocket to.

The above is obviously a slanted situation, why doesn't Jim have neat toys too etc, but Joe could also have other nastier items in his pockets.

Example B: Jim and Joe both start playing at the same time, Joe has more money then Jim and Npcs one event. Suddenly next time Jim is adventuring with Joe, he's at a massive disadvantage, because Joe suddenly has Arcane armor, or 2x Prison, or Cloaks, or Banes, or 3 little items. This is good for Joe, he's got an advantage, its good for the chapter cause it got some donations, its BAD for the chapter because Jim gets a bad taste in his mouth because he gets 'less' because in his eyes he didn't 'Bribe' the Chapter Owner. If Jim feels badly enough about it he quits, and that chapter has one less player, AND misses the chance of seeing Jims 4 friends show up to give the game a try.

Should we be sending Jim's Fairwell letters to Scott?

Example C : Harry potter is a gifted and skilled player of Quidditch, he gains the rank of seeker and a valued place on the team. Malfoy is a poorly liked, unskilled jerk, but donates a stack of Firebroom 6000s to the team and is granted one of the few positions in the team despite his lack of skill or team spirit.
(See I can bring in a metaphor that really has little impact on the discussion at hand too, what fun! :mrgreen: (Sorry couldn't help myself after reading the 'rock band' example that seemed in poor taste.) )

Personally I understand the reasons to offer Stamps/rewards for those that help build up the game, its a good way to get things done etc. But its a fine line between reward those that put in the extra effort, and making people who attend and support the game by playing (and paying PC fees, which pay for the camp etc.) feel like second class players.

Ultimately, like Mike said, Its a matter of opinion where that line is drawn, and I'm certaintly not going to stand here and try to say my view on things is the only correct, or fair one. Especially considering that I'm still a relative 'new comer' (Technically I've passed 2 years, but thats nothing :geek: )

At any rate, I feel Scotts point is well taken, but poorly balanced and your reply was focused only on one part of the argument.

My High BP character can Die and perm,
My In Game crafted rituals can backlash/fail,
My OOG paid for gobbie items can.....? (Stolen/looted, but the point is even with a donation generated items there should be no guarntees that it will last its full lifetime)

I already do field tons of customer service issues, on an HQ level and an Alliance level (and a FP site level, but that's not germaine to this issue).

There are controls on what magic items go out. You can't NPC one weekend and get that many. If a chapter is doing that, they are digging their own hole. And $700 of goblin stamps aren't going to buy you all those magic items, even if he got 700 or 3000 stamps.

I've been playng for 15 years and have seen things from almost every angle...PC, NPC, staff, customer and site owner. I'm very aware of the issues.

I was discussing why we can't go out and destroy magic items arbitrarily. If they are lost through serendipity during the normal course of gameplay, that's fine. But saying we should go out and actively steal them and/or destroy them is bad customer service. I also don't see how Rock Band was in poor taste. Is something distasteful about that game (as I've never played it).

Find me a better way to reward those players that bust their asses for the chapter and I'll embrace it. Taking away their rewards for their hard work isn't the way to do it. I do not have enough ways to reward the people who drive 3-5 hours to work for a full weekend ripping down old structures, building things, making props, cleaning out old cow manure, etc. And for all that work they have to NPC an event to get one half decent magic item? I wish I could give them ten (but that would really mess up game balance).

You also left out that Joe is benefitting from Jim's donations and hard work. You also left out that unlike randomly distributed magic items, anyone can earn goblin stamps and then NPC and get a magic item. If people see donating money and/or work as bribing a chapter owner, there's really a bigger issue there.

Please don't turn this into a pissing contest Lurin. If Dreaming Further took offense at what was truly intended as a lighted hearted joke, then he can tell me and I'll apologize. Impuning my devotion to the players of this game or my experience is not constructive in any manner.

Scott

 

[Kauss]

Let me be clear about something
"I was discussing why we can't go out and destroy magic items arbitrarily. If they are lost through serendipity during the normal course of gameplay, that's fine. But saying we should go out and actively steal them and/or destroy them is bad customer service. I also don't see how Rock Band was in poor taste."

I am not saying randomly go and blow up magic items. I was saying add destroy magic to the options when scalling for a high level encounter or group. There is no reason why danger should only be danger to the lives of the charicter and not their items as well. This is a suggestion exclusivly aimed at higher level people and groups, much like death elementals and anyone whiping out dragon magic is.

As to the "not in the database" comment about creatues with oblit, well they are in someone on the east coast's database. I have not met them IG, but I have heard over and over the storys of creatures with such powers from people visting from the EC (example monster was one that apprently had 3 arcane oblit per day, and it came out in groups.) I dont know, nor care, what chapter made them, I was just using as an example that any encounter level that has oblits in it could very well have some other kind of dragon magic effect in it like destroy magic.

 

[Lurin]

I was going to let this matter lie, as I said in my last posting I feel on this issue that the line for such rewards/system can never be a firm target, I was merely pointing out what I consider is an error in productive discourse, which is setting it up as an adversarial argument and taking a single tact. I will attempt to honor your request not to turn this into a 'pissing contest' though it seems to me to be a poor request considering that your responce to my post would start one in many cases (Mentioning 15 years, 'seeing things from almost every angle', and your 'Why don't you give me a better system smarty pants?' type remark.)

Really my remarks can be boiled down to, why are such items generally considered as not being in danger of destruction in the course of standard play? I'm not for sending out mobs with DFM every event, but part of playing the game is assuming RISKs, risk that your character will die, risk that your prized possesion may be destroyed. Do I think a random Vampire should pop 3 destroy formals with no warning? Of course not, Do I think that in a game with Dragon mages those creatures should Ignore/avoid using what I think would be one of their greatest deterants because it COULD pop a strong donators item....its debateable, I'm certaintly willing to consider both sides.

I know anyone can earn gobbies, BUT gobbies are earned entirely out of game, which is fine, its a good system, but then protecting those items beyond normal game play mechanics (Ie having no negation present in game) is something that I'd like to discuss. I may very well end up agreeing with your point of view, I know my personal opinions tend to match yours and Mikes in most discussions I've read.

I sincerely doubt Dreaming Further took any offence to your jab, however it still set a tone that was to me, a bit inappropriate/harsh. I know my scathing comment on it being 'Snarky' is something that is hard to forgive, indeed at the level of a slap in the face no doubt.....forgive my sarcastic bent, but if you are going to suggest its a light heart jab, surely turn about it fair play.

As to the Rock-Band point being in poor taste, I considered it such because A. It did not make a direct comparison to the issue at hand. and B. My reading of its inclusion was an intent to portray any suggest of having these items attacked/destroyed being inherently unfair (a 'good' kid (or player?) being punished because of the actions of a 'less good' kid (player?), There was no claim of 'bad players' present in the discussion this far so this point brought in a facet to the discussion that was unneeded as up until point, the focus was entirely based on the rules and general potential 'fixes' for a percieved issue.

I would like to know how I made you feel that I was "Impuning my devotion to the players of this game or my experience is not constructive in any manner." I stated that my intent was to provide 'balance' to the discussion, I made no claim in being either impartial nor providing a complete (or even fair) view, only that I was providing some counter-point. Suggesting that I was making a personal attack really struck me as turning this from a discussion on policy to a heavy handed way to have me cease offering my opinion. (Again I'll point to the 'Don't turn this into a pissing match' comment)

So there isn't any confusion.

Scott, I think your Decade and a half of participation and service is admireable. I also think that you have a clearer overview of the game then I have, and I'm likely to concede/learn from you on almost any discussion we have or I read. That same level or respect/power as a moderator on these boards (and an obviously significant force in this game I love) Means that even light hearted jibes without any mark to suggest that you are kidding can rub people the wrong way (Maybe my sense of humor is differnt in the mid-west here). Personally to me your jibe, coming right after a very strong single point focus of multiple examples was harsh especially in responce to what reads to me as a very earnest question.

My defense hackles are obviously raise so I'm going to stop talking as belaboring the point from here would not be productive.

 

[Duke Frost]

Let me be clear about something
"I was discussing why we can't go out and destroy magic items arbitrarily. If they are lost through serendipity during the normal course of gameplay, that's fine. But saying we should go out and actively steal them and/or destroy them is bad customer service. I also don't see how Rock Band was in poor taste."

I am not saying randomly go and blow up magic items. I was saying add destroy magic to the options when scalling for a high level encounter or group. There is no reason why danger should only be danger to the lives of the charicter and not their items as well. This is a suggestion exclusivly aimed at higher level people and groups, much like death elementals and anyone whiping out dragon magic is.

As to the "not in the database" comment about creatues with oblit, well they are in someone on the east coast's database. I have not met them IG, but I have heard over and over the storys of creatures with such powers from people visting from the EC (example monster was one that apprently had 3 arcane oblit per day, and it came out in groups.) I dont know, nor care, what chapter made them, I was just using as an example that any encounter level that has oblits in it could very well have some other kind of dragon magic effect in it like destroy magic.

I agree with your points about danger to both character and items. It's part of the game and should be. But what was initially proposed was arbitrarily deciding someone had too many items and sending out monsters to purposely destroy them as a solution to the magic item imbalance issue. In the past, we've also had people propose that monsters also be sent out to purposely perm high level characters. The game must appeal to players that are new and old, high level and low level as long as they are at worst following the rules and at best contributing to make the game better for everyone.

I think part of the issue here is that we are discussing several different issues. I was specifically answering why we should not destroy magic items IG as a means to fix a magic item imbalance. Far more equitable to just do it OOG to everyone...or not do it at all. I was not commenting that things should never be destroy magicked or lost. But for a player to accept the loss of an item or a ressurection, they must feel that it was done fairly and was not targetted at them. There is a fine line between running a high level encounter and targetting high level characters unfairly.

The NPC magic item is a completely different issue. I wasn't arguing for or against it. But we do have an NPC magic item reward system now (many chapter do, not all), and to give someone something for all their hard work and then just yank it on purpose shortly after is not cool nor fun.

As far as critters with oblits or whatever else on the East Coast, I know for a fact that one creature went out with arcane oblits once and it has not happened since after discussion amongst the owners.

In HQ, we have put out the carrier attack obliteration on one super tough but super controlled NPC. She has been out a few times and never without a plot person with her. She has specific instructions when she can and can't use it and how to use it. She in no way randomly nor arbitrarily runs around zapping people with it willy nilly. And even with all those controls in place, we have been questioned on it by other chapter owners, etc. However, our playerbase has never seemed to have an issue with it to my knowledge. We have definitely had no official complaints about it.

There is an official Alliance database of monsters with standard monsters. None of these have destroy magic or obliterate. It was implied that creatures of this sort were standard and for everyday use, or at least that's what I inferred.

My rock band example was trying to explain the situation in non Larp terms. I guess I failed. I was attempting to make clear that it is not good policy to let someone work hard, earn a reward and then just take it right back because that reward was a problem somewhere else. If they lose it during the normal course of play, that's entirely different.

My comments about "find me better rewards were" not snarky, they were sincere. I have tried for a decade to figure out a way to reward players that work hard that really reflects the value of their work. Magic items are the only thing that even comes close. I've had people do work that would cost $40, $60, $80 or $100 an hour if I hired someone to do. And for that they get a shiny metal trinket and a yellow tag. At the end of the day, the people who work the absolute hardest do it for the love of the game and to make the game better. I don't want to lose any players, but I want to lose those type of players least of all. So my challenge is still out there...how do we reward them for what their work is really worth or even a small fraction of that?

I also ask that people try to see this board from my perspective. If ARC or "the powers that be" don't answer, people complain. But if we do answer and don't phrase everything in an impossibly precise way, we get jumped on. It is far easier for us to just not post. In fact, several ARC members and others have chosen that route, to the detriment of the overall playerbase. Some players have chosen that route as well, also to the deteriment of all. Let's not turn this discussion into another example of that. That will take effort and tolerance from everyone posting here, myself included.

Scott

 

[Ghost]

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[Mike Ventrella]

Why not reward them with additional build/XP that, instead of having to wait months to spend (gobbies, game days, etc.) they are able to spend right away? It's generally the same end (more levels), but via actual levels instead of via items. Perhaps that is a bit too much, and equivalent levels could not be given, naturally, but given how valuable build is, why not?

Sincere question, actually wondering.

Because there is a limit as to how many XP you can get, based on events and "monthly blankets." To allow otherwise would make this a real game of haves and have nots, where all the staff people and people who have money to donate are huge levels and everyone else struggles to catch up.

When I set up the Alliance, I specifically put into play these restrictions because I saw how that was the biggest abuse in International, and caused too many complaints.

Giving people magic items -- which are tremendously expensive GS-wise -- is better because they can also be used up, lost, or stolen (unlike Build Points).

Hope that answers your question!

 

[Ezri]

I understand your intent, but I think that just exacerbates a different issue. It's already easy to go from 1st-10th level inside a season (at least on the East Coast) just by playing one chapter and blanketing (maybe hopping to one or two games at other chapters). I don't think leveling faster is the answer either.

The idea of creating lesser effects for magic items came up, so that spells cast from memory are stronger, but that's creating another whole set of spells for people to learn and just sounds like a headache waiting to happen.

 

[Maxondaerth]

You know, one thing I hear people lament the loss of a lot from BITD is the spell/ability Suppress Magic. Now, I'm not entirely sure if this only suppressed magic items/ritual effects or also memorized spells from casters, but what if it was reintroduced to work only against ritual magics/items? For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, my understanding was the spell made it so the target's magic didn't work for ten minutes. This would make it so people would have to be wary in a fight and decide whether or not they openly want to start activating spells or spellstriking stuff and announcing themselves as a target for this effect. It wouldn't so much take away toys as level the playing field a bit, and would add in a bit of strategy in employing those MI's publically. Just a thought anyway.

 

[Duke Frost]

As David/Lurin has pointed out, there is no hard and fast target for this stuff. Also, what may be an issue in one chapter may not be in another. Perhaps some of these things just need to be chapter rectified...especially the LCO items because they are chapter specific.

Dreaming Further (sorry, don't know your real name), brought up the point that the spells are pretty well balanced for casters when there aren't a lot of magic items about. This is also true. And in general, the rules are pretty solid and amazingly do allow for a lot of different play styles from person to person and chapter to chapter.

To some other points, a lot of what people are suggesting has been tried to really bad ends. In pre split Nero I knew people that got FORTY blankets a months. There are characters in International that are 75th level. No one in Alliance will approach that in decades...maybe never. It would be very hard to get 10 blankets a month (4 events, 1 monthly blanket, one dragon stamp blanket), let alone 40. It could be done, but doing it with consistency would be nearly impossible. And that's a good thing. Level progression and character building is pretty balanced in the game. Without magic items, if you put up 3 or 4 5th level characters against one 30th level character, the low levels have a pretty good shot at taking them down.

Someone once said (it wasn't me) that Alliance is about people getting their moment to feel cool. I've taken this to heart, especially as a plot member but also in general. Magic items make people feel cool, especially when they first get them. But casters want to feel cool. So do fighters, rogues and evereyone else. How do we adjust magic items so that people can still feel cool about their build skills? Fighters have it built in. The day a fighter gets his first slay, he feels cool. The day he swings 10s, he feels cool. And it's out there for everyone to see. Rogues get dodges and feel cool. A rogue evading 6 or 8 or 10 "20 deaths" looks cool as hell. How do we make casters feel cool? They get a prison...damn cool spell. But then some rogue runs up calling "Activate prison", "Activate Prison", "Activate Prison". Rituals are supposed to make the casters feel cool, but it really only sticks them in a circle for 10 minutes or an hour and doesn't happen as often.

Scott

 

[Dreamingfurther]

wow, first of all I have to say you really can never know how fast things are going to move on this board! I stepped away for just about a day and a half and had a beautiful nice 15 minute read just to catch up!

I also just want to say I feel a bit special and its really cool to see so much conversation. I hoped that the comment about costumer service was a joke when I read it and I took it as one! I certainly don't want all that! But thanks for your support Lurin(Dave) In all this I wasn't offended and I'm happy to see that everything seems to have cleared up, as the person who was really interested in this discussion and re-started it because I were sad it was closed for reasons of argument before, I beg everyone to be nice. Oh and for the record my real name is David. ^_^

Back to the topic at hand...


I for one am very happy with Alliance's choice to be somewhat reasonable with how fast people can accumulate build. When looking at LARP's across the board I agree thats at least one of the very broken things about International is that you can literally just buy a 20th+ level character. At the same time people have pointed out its not too hard to get to 10th level even in just one summer if you work hard at it in Alliance, and in my opinion thats good too. Ffor someone who knows the game and rules it's a little slow until your at least 5th level or so. I mean everyone has to agree that it is more exciting when you have a larger arsenal of things you can do than just "3 normal" all day long... =)

Before I go any further however I do want to say that I hope (and have observed to a good degree) that the people putting in tons of effort won't be re-payed in fully material ways. To be honest even if I could have a 40th or 50th level character I wouldn't take it (at least at this point ) because it wouldn't be fun for everyone with only a few people at that point. A lot of the time the reward is non material and too much effort to make it such can be mistaken possibly? Understand in no way I am trying to de-value any of the wonderful contributions people have made. =) Thanks to all who have give that!

In rewarding large contributions with giving individual people the ability to get magic items I can understand how that makes sense, but in reality although it is admittedly better, it still has the potential to break the game just as much as 50th+ level characters and such right? I don't know off hand of a perfect solution to this or even if there is one so I'm not trying to challenge in any way anyone who has been in the game far longer than I've even been around. =)
My earlier comment regarding destroy magic for beasties may have been mis-interpreted. I never intended to suggest that as a way to target specific players or use it as an initiative to forcefully reduce the number of MI in the game at any given moment. It was more suggesting that perhaps it should slowly be implemented that the high end game faces things like oblits, and destroy formal magic?

What I was suggesting it with this logic;
Players can play for years and then perm. = All that time/effort/money gone, it is a part of the game.
Why should this not apply to magic items received through hard work and donations? Is it really different that;
Players can donate tons of money and love and then knowingly get into a dangerous battle and have that item destroyed.

In regards to the aim of Alliance really being "everyone gets their moment to feel cool" I have to totally agree. That is a large reason why I play it, and to be honest I almost enjoy seeing other people have that moment in a fair way as much as occasionally feeling it myself. The fact that it is rare to some extent even makes it a bit more valuable. I have to admit however that it seems like there aught to be some good way to figure out how to have magic items that don't de-value casters. Perhaps making them (generally) lower level magic? Perhaps making them (once again generally) only one time every? If you think about it since I believe Skill Store is this way it would make sense since magic really is the Skill of the Scholar class. Here is an idea that perhaps would add too much complexity but what about requiring other classes to say the incant for magic items they use and scholars only get the "activate <<spell name>>" sweetness? I'm not totally familiar with how all the magic items work but what about simply requiring something like a silent 3 count or 5 count or 10 count depending on the type of magic item to make them more like using scrolls and potions which no one complains about for the afore mentioned reasons that they take a balanced amount of effort to use? Admittedly this is a hard problem, and allot of people have allot invested and I would hope any change is phased for the element of being fair to older players but what do ya'll think about some of these ideas?

 

[Ghost]

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[Octaine]

This is an IG issue not an OOG issue. By an IG issue I mean magic items are given out as treasure, created or gobbied, who uses them is NOT under the chapters control. On the east coast mostly fighter types have/use magic items, but on the west coast its the other way around. Now maybe there are more PC fighters/rogues/templars on the east coast as opposed to casters.

Sending out monsters to target these PC wont do anything. I mean what are you going to do when all the magic items are now in the hands of the casters, not send out the destroy magic monster???? I am not trying to be mean here but I really don't see a need to make major changes to the rule system. We are a product of our own actions and perhaps thru the course of time this will change.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

Well I might point out, (despite being a little bit sad my whole post has sortof gone un-noticed... =\) that if monsters started throwing around some destroy formal magic and casters had the magic items they could pull back and over time make more of a polocy of protecting their items with the resist destroy formal magic formal. Where as fighters can't really do that short of going to the casters all over again...

 

[Gilwing]

Well I might point out, (despite being a little bit sad my whole post has sortof gone un-noticed... =\) that if monsters started throwing around some destroy formal magic and casters had the magic items they could pull back and over time make more of a polocy of protecting their items with the resist destroy formal magic formal. Where as fighters can't really do that short of going to the casters all over again...

Its great for some one to creat that item....and after all those events/years, money, scrolls, sticks and hard work, some npc comes out and decides that since too many items are out....throws a packet and destroys you item....that is if you don't have a spell shield on and they pick which item to destroy (unless you have 1). Why doing that whould just make me carry more so that I can chose which one to be destroyed.

I hosntly think that targeting pc's because of there accomplishments is wrong....Way to go...good job.....now I have to take it away. I don't think that a solution to the problem.

-David-

p.s. I do believe that Scott DID addressed your post about destroying magic items

 

[Hoyce]

I hosntly think that targeting pc's because of there accomplishments is wrong....Way to go...good job.....now I have to take it away. I don't think that a solution to the problem.

From a rules perspective, I agree with Dave completely here. From a plot perspective there are occasions when targeting a character's items is completely valid, though that kind of ability should be reserved for powerful, dangerous and intellegent bad guys.

While the concept of "lets destroy some folks stuff to have less items in the game" is all right in theory, it's difficult, if not impossible, to impliment fairly.

If you make it random, you risk Captian Newbie getting his first ever magic item destroyed before he/she even has a chance to use it (or barely does) if you target specific well treasured players for OOG reasons (i.e. their vast amount of magic items) you are, well...targeting.

Targeting a character IG is one thing as long as there is good IG reason and IG reason only, but a player...not so much. Not to mention the fact that you will still get people bitching and complaining.

I agree that the prevelence of magic items in the game are a big problem, but I don't agree that this is the best way to deal with it.

-Hoyce

P.S. I've agreed with Dave twice in the span of a month. I'm starting to think the world really is coming to an end...

 

[Duke Frost]

Targetting character = plot goodness.

Targetting player = bad mojo

A rules imbalance like an overabundance of magic items should not be dealt with IG. It should be dealt with through an OOG mechanism. That mechanism should probably be explained IG afterwards. It's in the same vein that when you NPC and get a magic item, you can make up a story about where you got it. It can be anything from I found it on the trail to the Queen gave it to me for service to our country (though you better clear that second one through your plot committee).

This is a completely separate issue from say, a group of players going into the evil overlord's inner sanctum by themselves where they all rezz and lose their items or walking up to the dragon and mouthing off to him. IG actions should have IG consequences and challenges.

Let's also keep in mind that while there are some balance issues with the game, none of them are tremendously out of control (like they had been in the past). Too many magic items makes it harder to scale encounters and some players get envious...but it's not desroying the entire game like has happened in the past. We are striving for the perfect balance for high and low level, new player and old player and all different play styles. Striving for perfection is a great goal and makes the game better, but will never be achieved...as we all have different visions of perfection.

Scott

 

[Mike Ventrella]

Ye, the game is not so unbalanced that anyone is seriously arguing that we should destroy the items currently out there or otherwise take them away from players. I hope everyone realizes that.

All some of us are trying to do is reduce the usefulness of certain magic items in comparison to the usefulness of an actual spell that has been memorized.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

point well taken. I agree we shouldn't just start blowing up peoples stuff. =) What about some of the other ideas for magic items I threw out. What did people think?

<<quote my earlyer post>>
I have to admit however that it seems like there aught to be some good way to figure out how to have magic items that don't de-value casters. Perhaps making them (generally) lower level magic? Perhaps making them (once again generally) only one time every? If you think about it since I believe Skill Store is this way it would make sense since magic really is the Skill of the Scholar class. Here is an idea that perhaps would add too much complexity but what about requiring other classes to say the incant for magic items they use and scholars only get the "activate <<spell name>>" sweetness? I'm not totally familiar with how all the magic items work but what about simply requiring something like a silent 3 count or 5 count or 10 count depending on the type of magic item to make them more like using scrolls and potions which no one complains about for the afore mentioned reasons that they take a balanced amount of effort to use? Admittedly this is a hard problem, and allot of people have allot invested and I would hope any change is phased for the element of being fair to older players.
<<end quote>>

 

[Mike Ventrella]

. Here is an idea that perhaps would add too much complexity but what about requiring other classes to say the incant for magic items they use and scholars only get the "activate <<spell name>>" sweetness?

Classes are completely OOG though, and if a new proposal goes through, people will be able to change their classes a lot easier (no, don't ask, it hasn't passed yet, so I won't discuss it).

What you COULD do is limit that to, say, anyone who has formals or something; then it won't be class based.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

hmm that is an interesting idea and I like. But of course I'd let all the old magic items still do what they did so that you don't get older players getting unhappy. =)