New Acarthia Merchants Guild

*AND DELETE AND START OVER*
So this originally became a really long rant about how not everyone is playing the game as a beat stick or a caster and that those that are playing to be a merchant or a crafter need a way to make money as well. There are players that are doing this. Radulfr is a great example. The character was actually born out of the player's inability to be too active in a weekend or it would exacerbate health issues, potentially to the level of missing one or more days of work, which it has done. The market value and price of something will almost never me pennies over what it costs to make it. That's bad business practice and is not very rewarding for people playing those characters. I agree getting greedy for profit is a bad thing and getting the best deal you can is a good thing. But if everyone sells everything at just over production prices you are not encouraging that style of game play at all. In fact I'm certain the crafters with their special abilities at the higher levels of their skill would just quit. You are encouraging the death of the economy. The points behind the Double Production as the market value are:
1. It makes is easy to determine market value.
2. It allows the vendor HAGGLE ROOM which is Role Play opportunities.
3. Players that are playing to be merchants have a system by which they can still make money at a reasonable rate compared to those that are adventuring and still be able to offer discounts if desired. The concept of a Bulk Discount doesn't exist when you charge barely over production. There's no savings for people making in Bulk, so the mere suggestion I've found laughable IG. In fact the "Bulk" system of batching COSTS MORE.

I have had a theory, that I cannot confirm, that originally had the prices at the merchants guild so high that players wanted to take over the guild just so that they could make it be reasonable and in line with a defined set of market values. That the prices were meant to drive players to find other players that could craft and sell their wares at prices that were easy to tolerate. People looked for alternatives and they found them and when the market price seemed steep, they found ways to bargain a discount. This was all do-able under the double production market value.

I can concede that maybe double production is to much of a mark up, but I'd like to hear a proposed market price that works, is consistent, and people can remember easy to be able to work with it on the fly. Remember to make some of these things people have had to have dumped a lot of build that you're using for spell casting ability or weapon skills to be able to make them. To be able to even strengthen a weapon (and yes I agree Strengthening and Silvering is rather exorbitant) requires 10 points of blacksmith. That's at best 20 Build for being a Dwarven artisan, templar, fighter, or scout doing leveling blacksmith. That's the best case scenario, what would you do with an additional 30 build on your sheet, [pulling the value based on all races]? I know that's near 1/3rd the build of most people at level cap. Is that worth only a few extra copper per item?

In the end, you want there to be players that can make those things that are high level to fill out the world, but it has to be worth it to those players to play those characters. If you want to nickle and dime the merchant players out of the game you can, you just won't have people to make 31+ Suites of armor for you and will have to find it in game or be at the mercy of whatever the Merchant's guild is doing. I'd rather have a known system where there is a profit for crafters where they can deal with while allowing them to play with their character and prices how they see fit. If you don't see the value in that level of market price I don't know how to make you see the value. The market value needs to be something that is upheld all around by the players and viewed and observed by Plot and NPCs. Without that stability the economy and market value is whatever people decide it is. It would be like suddenly having everything in the game not able to be hit by weapons, only magic and the loot system was based around damage done. Sure you could pick up a wand, but it forces you to play and do something you really didn't want to.

Lastly, I'm not a fan of being able to spend goblin stamps on production of items. I understand we have a lot of giving players contributing to try to make this game as great as it can be, but if the benefit you are recieving is used to circumvent the needs of the world to breath and live as a world, do you want that benefit? As a crafter I have to pay in coin the production cost as well as use my production points which limit my ability to produce. Gobbies for Production of an item being item without the skill feels like there's no point to leveling a crafting skill at all unless you intend to really dig into it. I can obtain a limited amount of anything I want, except for armor 31 points and over, for just having the gobbies and you are right that is the biggest competition that merchant players and the merchant's guild will face and it does break the economy. It's not an in game option that is available it is an optional player benefit for trying to help the game.

I think I wound up on a soap box again and I apologize for that, but I'm not re-typing this again. There will be the original rant on my facebook later cause I don't think the original post had a place here as it was much more personal and emotional. I'm not angry, upset, of attempting to attack anyone in this post. The concept of market value and the ability to make a profit as Not an Adventurer/Quester/Modder is something that really hits home for me. This very concept and no one seeming to be willing to agree to a market price that was more then pennies over production is one of the reasons I had been considering quitting the game all together. Quitting is not on the table at the moment, but I am changing things up a bit for me and my play for a while.
 
The Alliance system is horrible for Artisans be they blacksmiths, scroll makers, or potion makers. No argument here.

This is one of the reasons you see so few players play Artisans. The economy is "murder" based rather than production based because the things players want can't be produced by other players. You can't produce components, formal scrolls, or magic items. This is the middle and end game and artisans don't have any part of it. I really hope in the next version of the rules they give something valuable for artisans to produce.
 
I was somewhat sad that I couldn't max out the skill and start into making items that were ready to take magical enchantment of some sort. Like if Strengthening allowed a process by which you could make it a magic item as well could that be worth the price on it? Little outside topic, but a good question. Really, the economy is one part up to players and one part up to plot. If there isn't an established market value it messes with things cause no one can say here is base line with profit and I can cut into my profit by X amount. I sort of feel like the Artisan system was designed for people that liked making phys reps and wanted an in game equivalent so they could make and sell at game and the artisan system is the result. It has a feeling that seems kind of tacked on. I wouldn't mind there being skill branches that let you specialize in making different types of equipment and that let you eventually get to points where you could make items that could take magic. While I think it would be awesome to craft something start to finish, I think passing the item off to people that know it and it's components and quirks would make more sense. Blacksmith sets it up to be as receptive as possible, casters take it from there.
 
There are plenty of game economies in which end-game components cannot be produced by players. With those, rare crafting components (which have been introduced, but not widely understood as to the function of them), and consumables constitute the economy. Unfortunately in this case, as has been mentioned, Goblin Stamps can be exchanged for in-game items. It's effectively a pay-to-win type scenario as far as the economy is concerned... which is really the enemy of any in-game economy. If goblin stamps were no longer redeemable for production, the economy would be forced to evolve. Artisans would become useful, even valued. Many people would be upset, because it means they wouldn't have easy access to the potions and other things they see as being mandatory... but that's ultimately how to fix the situation.

A new situation would later arise with merchants: What to do with all that money? As we all know, the game doesn't have enough money-sinks as is. For the short term I think the merchants guild would have the ability to purchase production from an NPC source... to shore up a lack of supply (mainly thinking alchemy here. We have a few good blacksmiths).

For the long term, what else would you do with the coin? If the players are hoarding scrolls and components (which they are, at current, because there's really nothing else to do with them)... is there an end-game scenario for artisans/merchants, aside from swimming in a money bin Scrooge McDuck style?
 
Well, there is investing in guilds. Funding expensive ventures. Drinks at the tavern. As Radulfr I almost dropped 10 Gold in Bayenna for navigators and felt really empowered outside of the nobility. That was all the money I had been able to save up at that point from start of game. That changed up to having to ask a white belt to step in instead, Not the nobilities fault. Believe it or not, we merchants hire people to help us too. We're not just hording money. I have at best 1 gold to my name presently, though I also have unclaimed orders.
 
Our chapter can't have a ton of gold sinks ever, because eventually we need to stabilize to the national economy. We already have the problem of traveling players (me for instance) being able to go out of chapter and bring back gold.

As for GS for production, if you want to fix that issue, you have to have something that people would rather spend GS on. SF laughed at me for thinking of spending GS for production. I'm already thinking of not spending 100 GS the next few games on production so that I can have spare GS for my magic item pick at the end of the season.
 
Our chapter actually has the worst gold sinks of the 5 games I've talked to. Just on the spell inks and formal casting costs alone. I actually went to SF to spend coin on things that weren't available here (Potions, Alchemy, Battle Scrolls).

GS for production is a gold piece worth of production. Back before I had enchanted gear, I'd spend way over a gold in production between just potions and lost weapons/shields every event. Most events I've lost money, ie negative income counting what potions I use (this includes counting 100gs as income). But it's getting better as more is going out due to character levels, thank god. I think were right at the level of being able to afford double production value as the standard pricing (provided we keep up the loot bag, or it just ends up as lopsided again).

While I won't have a MI pick at the end of the year, I'll be interested to see whats on the list. Most I've seen of worth spending on is cloak, and that wouldn't make a dent in some of our players' GS accumulations. Aaaannnndd Mr. Paxton just informed me that PCs who made 7 games get a MI pick, so heres hoping a good cloak is in the list. Still wont make much of a dent in my GS tho.
 
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I think part of unlocking our local economic potential may have to do with thinking outside the mechanical box of the game rules. In large part, I beleive this has to do with elevating role-play-centric goods and services to the level of importance that mechanical ones have- and doing so as a group as a whole. I do not mean like... stuff like giving the tavern a cut on anything but rather: expanding 'Things needed" within the game. If we identify, prove and codify these goods and services as essential, or atleast solidly beneficial (in a real means) to the player base game experience (not annoying! they have to be fun or this wont work!), and the characters in play, then we expand the market and options for coin flow beyond production and weapons.

I guess basically, forcibly and mutually take steps to create more than a murder-based economy (cause it wont happen on its own, we'd have to orchestrate it)
 
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Oh! "More THAN a murder-based economy" -- boy, that made so much more sense than me puzzling over why on earth we would want to take steps forcibly and mutually to CREATE a murder-based economy. But anyway...

It'd be lovely if improved items like strengthened weapons were the province of crafting PCs. I'd love to support this.

Personally, I love having production items available through Goblin Points. I have a million Goblin Points. Dame Katherine has made 1.7 gold this entire season -- total. Not 1.7 gold + items and tags and cool stuff. Just I have spun the roulette wheel of searching monsters, and like Charlie Brown, "I got a rock." Now I know this is just bad luck of the draw -- and I LOVE LOOT SACK -- because the weaponless low level healer Lola faired much better! Still, the easy availability of production items through Goblin Points means that I can contribute meaningfully to my team's coffers without grumbling about treasure distribution.

I really don't want to grumble about treasure distribution.

So this system is working out great in that aspect, IMO.

If we can culturally improve on supporting our crafters, tell us how. (That's not sarcastic; I mean it genuinely.) I have always been under the impression that Radulfur is sold out every weekend, and booked in advance. Is that not true? Or he is, but supply and demand is dictating sucky profits for your character?

Trace
 
I usually take orders at event for the next event and if I get no orders then It's first come first served. This next gather Lamplight has decided to buy out all my base production, I can sell my first batch at the Market price though. I love the idea of strengthened weapons and silvered weapons and all but it really, truly is a gold sink. The process and it's initial production, not overly bad at 50 Prod and 5 Silver, that's cost to crafter. the Additional 50 Silver that is used as material in the process is the real killer and I can tell you that for Silvering and Strengthening, when I pointed the costs out to Jesse he did a double take. I mean doing the math, Long Sword, 30 Production 3 Silver You can make 10 Long Swords just out of the Material Cost and you get to keep your weapon through 2 destroying forces (Acid, Destroy, Etc.) So 3 of those before it's dead. They can't stack higher then 2 saves of your weapon. The thing that I feel has been kind of lenient on this is that should you be carrying the tag and ready to use it, you should be carrying the phys rep too. Realistically you can't Legend of Zelda fold that stuff up into your fanny pack. So you should have it repped, technically or have to run back to your cabin. I'm not stating that anyone IS just pulling out a new tag, but that's the other realistic side to it. Carrying 5 pole arms gets unwieldy, I know I had issues with 1 Pole arm, 4 Long Swords and two shields that I tried to rep the mod day and carrying those around. Let me tell you, I was sweating bullets since hitting any of them meant damage to my body, was certainly a fun exercise in what that would be like though.

Back on Commisions though, I've been considering making it so I take day 1 commissions only on day 1 and day two commissions on Day 2 so there's a "30 Day" and no more then that policy.
 
The problem with crafting skills supporting the economy is unless the rules start to do more to favor craft skills, it's never going to be a worthwhile build sink. I have 12 build sunk into blacksmith, not as much as Radulfr by any stretch but I see it as a significant build expenditure. This provides me with 60 points of production per event that I could make a 60 copper profit off of at double production cost. It isn't worth 12 build to me to make 6 silver a game. Even if I had 20 ranks of blacksmith I could make 200 points of production an event, and earn 200 copper selling at double production. Is it worth 40 build (60 for a non-dwarf) to earn 2 gold a game? I certainly don't think so. If I had 20 ranks and a workshop I could earn 4 gold a game, (after paying off the workshop in 5 games), but that's if I can actually sell 400 points of production every event (which I think is pretty unlikely barring a rust monster invasion).

Even if I have a paid for workshop I end up maxing out at about 1 silver per build, if everything goes right and you are able to sell your maximum production every event It's just not worth it. It becomes even less valuable as gold becomes easier and easier to get in the game.

There is no real way to have a fully functional player driven economy so long as the rules stay the way they are, because crafting skills are overpriced and undervalued and goblin stamps are a more economical way to purchase production items. It's an unfortunate fact but it is a limitation that we have to work with; craft skills are largely a role playing choice rather than a valuable build expenditure.
 
If you play the game to go for maximum benefit and trying to game the system, then yes. You are right. If you are trying to be immersed in a living breathing world, it is completely worth it. I could say I'm stopping commissions all together and become a bolt and arrow vendor. In truth, I have 3 Levels of Craftsman which get me 6 Silver a game and I have to do nothing but collect it and have it on my sheet. That's 6 Build right there. If I just wanted money I could just sink it all into Craftsman(Fletcher) at 2 Build a pop instead of Sinking into Blacksmith at 3 Build a pop. 60 of my build is in Blacksmith. That's more then half. That 60 Build could have easily been 30 Craftsman. 6 Gold a Game right there to just show up. Why didn't I do this? Because my character doesn't see the rules and behind the scenes. He exists in the world and can't make decisions based on the rule book that exists outside of his realm of existence. He isn't dealt the perfect hand and life doesn't always go as planned. He has his aspirations which involve being a blacksmith and he's going to work towards them. My character isn't built to try to be the maximum efficiency character that it can be in the world. That's part of why I'm not a Dwarf given that I was going heavy into blacksmith. I felt I'd be a little too cheesy and wanted to try something different. That and B makes some AWESOME masks. THANK YOU B!!! So I could play to game the system or I could play to be in the game. I'm here to do the latter. There's nothing wrong with playing to maximum benefit until the rules that are there start to become a reason NOT to do something simply because it isn't efficient. I stopped at 20 blacksmith and I'm considering advancing it more later after filling out some other skills. It's different types of play styles and ours don't match per say. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's better for the game because there is diversity. Personally, I like taking commissions and making friends and having that interaction. I get more from being inefficient on my card then I would being efficient and it isn't in game mechanics. It's in friendships and bonds and moments that can't be captured on a sheet.
 
Keith has more in mind what I was talking about- Im talking about thinking outside of mechanics and sheet. I know its very hard for some people to separate their sheet from their gameplay, but thats almost always the terms in wich im talking : )
 
I think we have sidetracked the thread too much at this point discussing economics, crafting skills rules and such and should try to bring it back to the topic at hand and the purpose of the thread.

I think we need to try and answer the following questions.

1. What is the purpose of the merchant's guild?

2. What is the benefit of being a member of the merchant's guild, and how can we make that better?

3. How can we resolve the conflict of interest in wanting a strong player run economy but still having a merchant's guild that provides goods that players need/want?

4. Are there any opportunities for expansion of the merchant's guild in terms of what they offer the town?


I will try to answer these questions the best I can.

1. It should provide a service to PC's as a place that they can sell their unwanted goods in exchange for coin. It should also be a place where PC's can come to purchase certain goods and services. It should also be a guild that PC's can join and advance through the ranks in exchange for some positive outcome.

2. This is a tricky one. The only thing I have heard thus far is that being a member of the merchant's guild provides you some slight discount on items bought from the merchants guild. Here is a thought I had. What if every event there are mods run exclusively for the merchants guild and the higher your rank in the guild the better (more potential profit) the mod. We already have similar mods for the healers guild and mages guild. Perhaps members of the merchants guild can spend time researching business opportunities in exchange for these mods. It doesn't always have to be a combat mod either, it could be something as simple as go haggle with Joe the gem merchant to try and get him to lower his selling price for rubies or as complex as renegotiating a trade agreement with Epyxia.

3. I don't have a great one for this either. The option of selling player made goods on consignment is one (see 4). Another option is that logistics theoretically has a list of what players are going to be bringing into the game production-wise. Perhaps that can be provided to the merchants guild and the merchants guild can carry fewer of those items that players are making, and more of what they aren't making? That requires more work for logistics though and I am sure Mac would be thrilled with that idea.

4. It could be a place where PC's who create in game items can sell their wares on consignment. It could be a place where PC's and NPC's come to conduct business transactions or more specifically act like a bulletin board where NPC's can go looking to hire PC's for their services or vice versa. It could be a place where money is exchanged (like when plot needs more copper and PC's want to carry around fewer coins). It could be a place where magic items/formal scrolls occasionally are offered for sale, providing another avenue of obtaining these items other than just killing things and/or winning auctions.
 
...which is an out of date not entirely accurate charter. I need to update it and haven't gotten to adding the new version I was sent a while back.
 
First of all, I do think that it makes sense to talk about the general economic system in the game to some extent, because whatever we come up with for the Merchant's Guild has to be compatible with the system in the areas covered by the system (e.g. production items). For instance, if the Merchant's Guild will be selling production items (whether made by PCs or otherwise), it makes sense to talk about whether there will be demand for production items and what price people will be willing to pay.

I think the first step in solving the problems that have been identified in this thread is to gather information on the state of the game as it is now. A lot of the stuff that people have said in this thread does not match what I have seen and heard; for instance, I have had no trouble getting plenty of money, and no problems finding items available for sale that I want. Also it seems like different people have different perceptions of what they want out of the game.

Here are some questions that I think would be useful to find out the answers to:

1. How many PC crafters do we actually have? How much can they supply (what are their levels, do they have a workshop?)
2. What is the demand for production items among the populace? How many weapons, potions, etc. are people going through per event? How much of this demand is satisfied by loot drops from enemies, how much are people buying from PC crafters, how much are people buying from the guilds?
3. Are the PC crafters that are in the game able to sell all their production? How much are they getting for it; how much money are they making?
4. Is the market clearing? (That is, is everyone who is willing and able to pay market price able to buy everything they want for the market price, and is everyone who is willing and able to sell for market price able to sell everything they want for market price?)
5. Are players able to afford the items they need?
6. Would PC crafters prefer a game in which market prices fluctuate a lot (so "playing the market" is essential for success), or would they prefer more stable prices?
7. Would consumers of production items prefer a game in which market prices fluctuate a lot, or would they prefer more stable prices?
8. What parts of the game are most interesting to PC crafters? Is it the economic strategy aspect (figuring out what to sell to maximize profit)? Is it the RP aspect of the transaction itself? Is it the ability to use merchanting as a tool to influence other PCs (e.g. getting on their good side by giving them a discount) for the purpose of achieving a larger goal? Or is it something else entirely?
9. If mods or other scenarios that involved merchants and negotiation (like the examples of haggling with a merchant over rubies or negotiating an international trade agreement) what would be needed to make them interesting? (For instance, as a player, I would probably find negotiating a trade agreement very interesting, but only if I had lots of background information about what goods are being traded, what the economies of the trading partners or like, who can produce what more efficiently, and so on. But everyone has different things that they like - that's what makes things interesting!)
10. Would people prefer answering the above questions in-game (like have an NPC go around doing an "economic census", or the Merchants' Guild go around doing a "market research survey" of what their customers want) or would they prefer handling that out-of-game (like through posts on this thread)?
 
Many PCs are struggling with cash. It's very hit or miss, depending on whether you mod or not. I, for example, rarely get to mod. Thus, I tend to be broke. That's what I hear from a lot of others, too. Modding appears to be the only way to consistently make money. The rest of the points, I'll let others handle.
 
PirateFox said:
Many PCs are struggling with cash. It's very hit or miss, depending on whether you mod or not. I, for example, rarely get to mod. Thus, I tend to be broke. That's what I hear from a lot of others, too. Modding appears to be the only way to consistently make money. The rest of the points, I'll let others handle.
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I think loot bag is changing that. PCs that participated in all the battles last game walked away with over 4 gold. Thats not bad for a weekend. If you are spending more than that in potions/scrolls/equipment then you aren't being frugal enough with your stuff.
 
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