New Acarthia Merchants Guild
- Thread starter NightEyes
- Start date
Klandaghi
Apprentice
I like the idea of grabbing information on the state of the game as it is now, but this is existing in a world that was here before player characters and will technically exist after player characters. Tailoring the world to the level of the players as they exist at present is tailoring the economy to the players as they exist which as far as I can tell, we have not been doing. We had stated market price is double production and as I'm led to understand, that is a nationally accepted market value. I understand we're a young game presently and that we don't have the same levels as those other games, but I don't think we're at a point that double production really hurts unless everything is destroying all weapons constantly. Which I understand is a mild exaggeration on what has been happening. I personally think that there is enough going on with game that having a volatile market for goods would actually hurt the game. If possible I'd rather maintain a market value and have the option of offering a discount or possibly bartering another service for goods.
Here are some questions that I think would be useful to find out the answers to:
1. How many PC crafters do we actually have? How much can they supply (what are their levels, do they have a workshop?)
I feel like answering this breaks the immersion of the game. There are the well known crafters, but there are also some people that are known only to their small group. Trying to gather this metric to work off of, isn't a long lasting solution, it's scaling to present need, which I don't see lasting the long game...
2. What is the demand for production items among the populace? How many weapons, potions, etc. are people going through per event? How much of this demand is satisfied by loot drops from enemies, how much are people buying from PC crafters, how much are people buying from the guilds?
This varies drastically from game to game depending on what is encountered. As for planned demand, it is safe to say Potions, Bolts, and Arrows are always in demand.
3. Are the PC crafters that are in the game able to sell all their production? How much are they getting for it; how much money are they making?
I can state that as Radulfr, I have had no issues selling my production at a market value of double production and have even cut into my profits by a good amount by selling my first batch at the double base production rate when I felt the situation was dire or the request was reasonable(meaning, while it cost me double my production to make it, I can still sell it with a vastly reduced profit margin at Market value). I have worked out contracts and exchanges with folks to provide a discounted rate in exchange for other services that I've needed. Normally maxing out at about a 25% discount from Market (AKA Half base production profit) The math on that all gets very wonky. A lot of people have tried to tell me that since I'm over 10 Skill that I should pass the savings on. I've decided not to do that, as it allows me to be generous and make a batch and not pass the mark up on if I don't. Market price being double production allows a lot of fun things as a crafter and I have the choice on how I want that to play out. I like having the option to be nice.
4. Is the market clearing? (That is, is everyone who is willing and able to pay market price able to buy everything they want for the market price, and is everyone who is willing and able to sell for market price able to sell everything they want for market price?)
This is an odd one and I can't say one way or the other. I can say that with items for Gobbies at production costs, that has an impact on the in game market to a degree. I think part of that desire and need is also for a lack of items being produced in game. Also that 100 Gobbies can go rather quick. For an Archer, that's 10 Quivers of Arrows.
5. Are players able to afford the items they need?
I have no basis for answering this really so I will abstain.
6. Would PC crafters prefer a game in which market prices fluctuate a lot (so "playing the market" is essential for success), or would they prefer more stable prices?
Stable. It makes it easier to price items to sell it makes it easier for customers to know what to expect and budget for. Stable please! I could see minor mark ups from opportunists, but nothing more then a few copper, 1 silver max off market.
7. Would consumers of production items prefer a game in which market prices fluctuate a lot, or would they prefer more stable prices?
Applies to the other side of the counter. Abstaining.
8. What parts of the game are most interesting to PC crafters? Is it the economic strategy aspect (figuring out what to sell to maximize profit)? Is it the RP aspect of the transaction itself? Is it the ability to use merchanting as a tool to influence other PCs (e.g. getting on their good side by giving them a discount) for the purpose of achieving a larger goal? Or is it something else entirely?
Really, I'm not too worried about profit. I prefer being able to help people when I can, I get warm fuzzies from it. That said, being able to play the negotiation and bargain game is fun and a form of mental combat that I CAN engage in. Working through the odds and differences, checking on pricing and working out that I could in fact make 1 batch and still sell to market price was really moving for me.
9. If mods or other scenarios that involved merchants and negotiation (like the examples of haggling with a merchant over rubies or negotiating an international trade agreement) what would be needed to make them interesting? (For instance, as a player, I would probably find negotiating a trade agreement very interesting, but only if I had lots of background information about what goods are being traded, what the economies of the trading partners or like, who can produce what more efficiently, and so on. But everyone has different things that they like - that's what makes things interesting!)
That would certainly make things interesting, though with trade agreements, what things would be trafficked? I could easily see a trade agreement forming to try to get material components shipped in and out as needed. Normally there's a market with commodity items for sale, we don't really have that in game though which was B's point about not having a murder based economy. The only things sold and traded for in game coin are items used to kill, heal, or inflict some form of effect/discomfort. There's no Lamp Oil being sold. No dishes, no utensils, no pouches, no clothes. That's all OOG money with good reason, you're selling something physically with the intent of not getting it back.
10. Would people prefer answering the above questions in-game (like have an NPC go around doing an "economic census", or the Merchants' Guild go around doing a "market research survey" of what their customers want) or would they prefer handling that out-of-game (like through posts on this thread)?
I think getting this information in game would be more logical.
Here are some questions that I think would be useful to find out the answers to:
1. How many PC crafters do we actually have? How much can they supply (what are their levels, do they have a workshop?)
I feel like answering this breaks the immersion of the game. There are the well known crafters, but there are also some people that are known only to their small group. Trying to gather this metric to work off of, isn't a long lasting solution, it's scaling to present need, which I don't see lasting the long game...
2. What is the demand for production items among the populace? How many weapons, potions, etc. are people going through per event? How much of this demand is satisfied by loot drops from enemies, how much are people buying from PC crafters, how much are people buying from the guilds?
This varies drastically from game to game depending on what is encountered. As for planned demand, it is safe to say Potions, Bolts, and Arrows are always in demand.
3. Are the PC crafters that are in the game able to sell all their production? How much are they getting for it; how much money are they making?
I can state that as Radulfr, I have had no issues selling my production at a market value of double production and have even cut into my profits by a good amount by selling my first batch at the double base production rate when I felt the situation was dire or the request was reasonable(meaning, while it cost me double my production to make it, I can still sell it with a vastly reduced profit margin at Market value). I have worked out contracts and exchanges with folks to provide a discounted rate in exchange for other services that I've needed. Normally maxing out at about a 25% discount from Market (AKA Half base production profit) The math on that all gets very wonky. A lot of people have tried to tell me that since I'm over 10 Skill that I should pass the savings on. I've decided not to do that, as it allows me to be generous and make a batch and not pass the mark up on if I don't. Market price being double production allows a lot of fun things as a crafter and I have the choice on how I want that to play out. I like having the option to be nice.
4. Is the market clearing? (That is, is everyone who is willing and able to pay market price able to buy everything they want for the market price, and is everyone who is willing and able to sell for market price able to sell everything they want for market price?)
This is an odd one and I can't say one way or the other. I can say that with items for Gobbies at production costs, that has an impact on the in game market to a degree. I think part of that desire and need is also for a lack of items being produced in game. Also that 100 Gobbies can go rather quick. For an Archer, that's 10 Quivers of Arrows.
5. Are players able to afford the items they need?
I have no basis for answering this really so I will abstain.
6. Would PC crafters prefer a game in which market prices fluctuate a lot (so "playing the market" is essential for success), or would they prefer more stable prices?
Stable. It makes it easier to price items to sell it makes it easier for customers to know what to expect and budget for. Stable please! I could see minor mark ups from opportunists, but nothing more then a few copper, 1 silver max off market.
7. Would consumers of production items prefer a game in which market prices fluctuate a lot, or would they prefer more stable prices?
Applies to the other side of the counter. Abstaining.
8. What parts of the game are most interesting to PC crafters? Is it the economic strategy aspect (figuring out what to sell to maximize profit)? Is it the RP aspect of the transaction itself? Is it the ability to use merchanting as a tool to influence other PCs (e.g. getting on their good side by giving them a discount) for the purpose of achieving a larger goal? Or is it something else entirely?
Really, I'm not too worried about profit. I prefer being able to help people when I can, I get warm fuzzies from it. That said, being able to play the negotiation and bargain game is fun and a form of mental combat that I CAN engage in. Working through the odds and differences, checking on pricing and working out that I could in fact make 1 batch and still sell to market price was really moving for me.
9. If mods or other scenarios that involved merchants and negotiation (like the examples of haggling with a merchant over rubies or negotiating an international trade agreement) what would be needed to make them interesting? (For instance, as a player, I would probably find negotiating a trade agreement very interesting, but only if I had lots of background information about what goods are being traded, what the economies of the trading partners or like, who can produce what more efficiently, and so on. But everyone has different things that they like - that's what makes things interesting!)
That would certainly make things interesting, though with trade agreements, what things would be trafficked? I could easily see a trade agreement forming to try to get material components shipped in and out as needed. Normally there's a market with commodity items for sale, we don't really have that in game though which was B's point about not having a murder based economy. The only things sold and traded for in game coin are items used to kill, heal, or inflict some form of effect/discomfort. There's no Lamp Oil being sold. No dishes, no utensils, no pouches, no clothes. That's all OOG money with good reason, you're selling something physically with the intent of not getting it back.
10. Would people prefer answering the above questions in-game (like have an NPC go around doing an "economic census", or the Merchants' Guild go around doing a "market research survey" of what their customers want) or would they prefer handling that out-of-game (like through posts on this thread)?
I think getting this information in game would be more logical.
Klandaghi
Apprentice
In regards to that Charter posted, that looks different from what was out at the last event. I have a copy of what was posted at the last event, but have been withholding posting it because I want the 100% that it is the accurate charter before posting misinformation. That said, the discrepancies are things like shift requirements at a certain level.
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Banks
Novice
I may be slightly out of date on these... I wasn't aware that changes were made after I submitted the final draft.
meirya
Adept
Ahah, here is the version that is correct and current. Jesse made adjustments.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/...hxmTvd7ukjzTDqVdcgPph4o/edit?usp=docslist_api
https://docs.google.com/document/d/...hxmTvd7ukjzTDqVdcgPph4o/edit?usp=docslist_api
From earlier in thread:
From above:
I'm a little confused here. If you're able to sell the item at 2x base production cost (and in the other thread, you said you thought that was a fair price), and you have enough demand at that price to even get into batches, I don't understand what you mean by "the market value and price will almost never be pennies over what it costs to make it." Am I missing something here?
From above:
I'm a little confused here. If you're able to sell the item at 2x base production cost (and in the other thread, you said you thought that was a fair price), and you have enough demand at that price to even get into batches, I don't understand what you mean by "the market value and price will almost never be pennies over what it costs to make it." Am I missing something here?
One thing I'll note about the charter is that with the exception of the Master Craftsman rank and the Guildmaster rank the guild does not require any levels of Production skills or Craftsman, it can all be done with tasks.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but in the version Dani linked it says or for all the ranks until Master Craftsman.
PirateFox
Specialist
"Candidate must possess ten (10) levels of a single craft or production skill or complete three additional tasks for the Merchants Guild. IN ADDITION, CANDIDATE MUST PRESENT THE GUILD MASTER OR ASSISTANT GUILD MASTER WITH A SAMPLE OF THEIR CRAFT" (emphasis mine on the issue area)
Ie, you either need a trade skill...or don't need it but must still have it to show a sample. Makes no sense.
We were just talking about the Merchants Guild with a group of people and I started brainstorming. If I wanted to start up a merchant's guild, what would I do?
- Buy items from mod groups and/or loot sac at production value and then resale at a slight markup. For example, I go on a mod, sleep gas poison drops. I can either sell it to someone with the merchant skill for production, or I can sell it to a guy who will take it off my hands for the same cost. He then can resale it at a slight markup, or also use the merchant skill to get rid of the inventory if it isn't for sale. Make it easy for adventurers to turn items into coin for easy division of their loot.
- Sell services. Need a runner to go get something from your cabin? I know a guy that will do that. Need a healer for a specific job, I got the hookup for you. Need a formal caster, no problem, I know them all in town and how many ranks of formal magic they have. Not to mention, I already have a special deal worked out with them.
- Take care of the logistics of formal casting. Want that arcane armor/bane item made? No problem, just give me XX gold and I'll not only find all the components, but I'll also get the formal caster, arrange a time and give you back a fully enchanted item.
- Buy a ward item and ward a secure locker somewhere up near the tavern. Going on a risky mod? No problem, leave all your expensive magic items with me and I'll keep them safe (you wouldn't believe how often the mages guild does this).
- Oh..special occasion, need some cupcakes, how many bakers do we know in town? I'll make sure that you have a dozen of your favorite cupcakes next gather.
- Buy some horses. Find people that don't do stuff between gathers. If someone needs something researched, hire out a person to do the task for them. Oh, so you need something researched in Garthok, no problem, Kendrick will borrow my horse, go to Garthok and research that for you. 3 silver.
- Snacks...want some snacks during game, sometimes the tavern fare isn't enough, great, I'll sell you these prepacked snack packs you can take with you when you go into the howling woods to hunt for the farmers lost goat for just 1 silver.
- Magic item/ritual sales - Setup a common time for a weekend auction. Perhaps a mod group gets a planar aslyum scroll. They don't really want it but maybe one guy is willing to pay 3 gold in the group. You know if you go outside the group, you may get Rivervale to pay 10 gold for it. Gather items like these and auction them off throughout the weekend. More people bidding on an item/scroll usually means more gold it will go for.
- Strengthened/Silvered weapons. Find people who find these to those that have them and make the sale happen. Buying them from a blacksmith rarely will be the best rate, you can find some off monsters cheaper. Find who got those, buy them cheap, resell them at profit.
- Be the guy/girl to go to find anything someone wants. Aneira wants an ancient gemstone, great, you have made friends with all the court treasurers and you know that the Scions just happened to find one 2 months ago. Someone wants a longsword, no problem, you always have spare longswords because you have a deal made out with Radulfur.
- Make some NPC contacts to get stuff that is hard for others to get. So you don't have a relationship with Finnbar so you can't get that earth blade formal cast. No problem, you happen to have made contact with an earth Formalist that will come to you and cast formals, at a price. And they are discreet.
- Have a deal with all the crafters in game. Potion makers, you know them. 20 Cure light potions isn't a problem for you. Blacksmithing, yep no problem. Scrolls, Giles is in your back pocket when you need something made.
- Beginning adventure kits. New adventurers may not have their picks. Or rope, or a lantern. No problem, you can hook them up with those things.
- Breakfast Burritos - Late midnight snack, breakfast burrito with pork green chili. Yep, there is a market.
- Your back killing you? No problem, there are a few people in game that specialize in services like massage. And they only work on tips. You can make that hookup happen. Heck, you can send them straight to their cabin.
- Discreet ward/wizard lock castings, not a problem for you. Either have a spellcaster on your payroll or get some items to provide these services. Offer concierge service of coming to their cabin at a specific time to cast it.
- Spellcrafting - Someone wants a monster slayer, you know who has spare high magic. Not only that, you have a sense of what we might be facing during a gather, so you even can suggest to teams, perhaps a monster slayer would be good for them for the weekend. Hey you scout there, want a spirit recall before you go into that super dangerous territory.
- Know exactly all the tricks with high magic. Know how ritual manipulation works. Sell that knowledge to acathians that know nothing about it so that they have the best chances of making the magic items they want.
- Have someone on your payroll that can do all the fun mental intrusion. Know a biata and know a stone elf.
- Make a deal with the mages guild and the healers guild. Convince them it is in their best interest to turn all potion and battle magic scroll trade over to you. Give them reasons why and cut them in on the profit. Do the work so they don't have to but make it worth their while. If they won't let you in on their business, undercut them and make friends with crafters in town.
- Leverage coinage. Loan out money (at a profit only) for those that really need it. Buy items that don't have a lot of worth now but will later.
- Oh Kendrick is heading back through the mists. Well I know he can pick up xx in Enerret that is hard for us to find here and bring it back with him.
- Discretion, beyond all else, be discreet and be trustworthy. Don't break the law, but be a business person. Being a merchant is never easy, it's a lot of detail oriented work. You have to know what is priced low and high. You need to be able to do the crap work that no one wants to, but be able to make a profit off of it. Know that at certain times of the weekend, adventurers are tired and will be more willing to throw coin at a problem than fix it themselves. Information is gold. Know who can do what and who has what. Know what people are looking for and understand the economy. It's all about the hustle.
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Briannon
Novice
If the guild as described above gets going, it might be worth it to have a secondary roster of people who aren't part of the Merchants Guild, but have paid the yearly fee to get priority on the adventurer's matchmaking list.
For example, Aneira is not a merchant and does not really want to be. However, as more people get higher level, there may be competition for formal casting fees which she does want.
Paying a fee for the Merchants Guild's endorsement/being their go-to-celestial-formalist sounds reasonable.
If a PC does decide to take this on, I have some tips on making sitting most of a day in ones guildhall far more comfortable and would be happy to share.
Good luck, merchants!
For example, Aneira is not a merchant and does not really want to be. However, as more people get higher level, there may be competition for formal casting fees which she does want.
Paying a fee for the Merchants Guild's endorsement/being their go-to-celestial-formalist sounds reasonable.
If a PC does decide to take this on, I have some tips on making sitting most of a day in ones guildhall far more comfortable and would be happy to share.
Good luck, merchants!
Klandaghi
Apprentice
So as I am not the master of relaying intent, this post is regarding the NPC run organization that is the Merchant's Guild. I hope you don't mind if I try to work a system for some of the things that you listed in the brainstorm that I think are awesome ideas and I think we could implement in game. If not I'll leave them be
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IMO the goal of every organization in the game should be to make it a PC run organization. It requires less resources from plot, is generally more fun for the PCs, and allows the game to be brainstormed by a large number of players. One reason that the mage's guild has been such a success is the amount of input and ownership the players have over it. PCs are in game 24 hours a "game day" NPCs are inherently limited unless they are a true PNPC like Quinn.
KnightKlaw
Apprentice
This was partially touched on by Paxton, but one of the major elements of any burgeoning market is the ability for individuals to place orders for things. Having a singular location where that connection could happen would be useful. Right now, I don't really know where to go for potions in-game, aside from the healer's guild. That doesn't help me if I want potions other than healer-type alchemy. There's also coatings, components, formal casting, silvering/strengthening services, etc.
Having a catalog of services and products you're capable of supplying would be useful. For those familiar with the Eve Online economy, I'm mainly referring to "Buy orders" here, but also expanding into contracting services.
The merchant's guild could effectively become the Jita 4-4 (another Eve reference) of the Denver chapter.
Having a catalog of services and products you're capable of supplying would be useful. For those familiar with the Eve Online economy, I'm mainly referring to "Buy orders" here, but also expanding into contracting services.
The merchant's guild could effectively become the Jita 4-4 (another Eve reference) of the Denver chapter.