Productionists

[Ash]

What is the motivation for a player to become an Herbalist (Potionmaking), Trap maker, Blacksmith or even an Alchemist? (I didn't include scroll making because that seems to be the least broken of them all)

The alchemist i can justify more than the others, though the way the game functions now, there isn't much use of getting more than three levels of Alchemy (to throw gasses) because they can just find stuff as treasure/gobbie what they need.

Potionmaking is the least working/most broken in my opinion because there is nothing in the list of potions that can't be done as a spell.

It seems like this system needs a bit of an overhaul.

There are those of us who do hit Journeyman in one or the other and even head to master level, but the honest truth is that it would make more sense not to "waste" the build that way and use it on other things instead.

The rp aspect is the only reason for it and yet you severely cripple your character if you seek to become a master at any of these and sink all of that build into those skills.

If your goal is to sell your creations the problem becomes the treasure found on mobs is usually what you'd be trying to market making your livelihood that more obsolete.

Thoughts?

 

[Ondreij]

My primary is a double master: potions and scrolls and, with labs and double batching can produce 800 Production Points per logistics period (400 each of potions and of scrolls). That's the equivalent of 160 Cure Light Wounds potions and 160 Light scrolls in one weekend!!! And with the journeyman discount, it only costs 9 gold 6 silver per logistics period for all of that fire power and healing ability.

So, what's up with that? Not only is it a crap load of spells to have in a single weekend, but they never expire, never grow old, never evaporate -- they are there until used.

It's kind of like having two columns (earth and celestial), each one a 5-4-4-4-4-3 ... except if I don't use a spell from memory, I can't save it for days, weeks, months, or years. (Of course, potions and scrolls keep).

On top of which, I can hand a potion or scroll to someone else, and they can use them when they need them without using any of their own spell memory. And there is no skill needed to drink a potion. That's pretty hot.

So, as a solo act, it's a pretty good capability. BUT AS A MEMBER OF A TEAM, and as part of the team balance, it is as essential a skill as swinging 10s, having eviscerates, being a 4+ column celestialist, etc...... with one extra dimension: your capability is still available to the team, even if you are not immediately available. Your capability travels with other members of the team. And, the team provides the coin for the production - so it's a symbiotic relationship -- You give me coin, I make your production, and you make sure I am fed, clothed, sheltered and protected. Oh, yeah, and I can also use that production to help in the fight (on the line, on a mod, etc).

It can also help turn the tide in a plot line. When LIGHT left the EARTH school, fighting Shadows was made a lot easier by producing a large pouch full of Light Scrolls. Anyone with read magic and a single Celestial spell slot can cast from that scroll. Pouring light spells into Shadows blows 'em up. Throwing light spells at a shadow-possessed friend blasts the shadow out of the body. And that's just one example.

What would you do with a fist full of Pin scrolls, or a pouch full of Purify potions? Could it make a difference to you?

 

[Libras]

If you want to hardcore make production-based items while still maximizing combat build, get 10 ranks for Journeyman Discount and buy a workshop. (Rent one if you can if you're raveling to another land.)

Otherwise, just stick to snagging special abilities.
Blacksmith 1 for refit. (I'm on the fence about BS20 for the 30sec refit. I would only say it's worth it if you wear a 40suit.)
Alchemy 3 for gas globes.
Create Scroll 20 (non-celestials only (cruel irony)) for casting off any scroll.

As long as production items are a standard part of any loot policy, I don't see that huge of a reason for any crafting-centric character. In addition, swinging 10s doesn't cost money. (Unless you're Vorping weapons when you're swinging low. Then someone needs to smack you.) Throwing gasses/scrolls does. It does allow you to "bank" abilities, but it's situational and you need to have them on you all the time to make use of it. I keep a pocket-size scrollbook on me with around 25 spells inside, but I haven't made any of them aside from the Disarms. 5 copper (at most) scroll pops a 2.5 silver (at most) Spell Shield so then the serious spells can connect.

 

[Lurin]

There is a big difference (at least in the chapters I play in) in random loot policy that is found, and what might be needed to overcome/gain a big advantage to a currently plotline. The advantage of production skills is that you can tailor your creations to either the problem at hand, or create large amounts of items needed to balance your team.

What good is finding 2000 production worth of poison shields during the battle of the elements plot lines?

 

[Libras]

Potionmaking is the least working/most broken in my opinion because there is nothing in the list of potions that can't be done as a spell.

I find Create Potion and Create Scroll to be even amounts of meh because anyone can drink a potion. If you need someone else to have the effect of the potion, just hand it to them and tell them to drink it. Only advantage I see in scrolls is that they are instantly recognizable and can be stored much more effectively. Then again, enough people have Healing Arts to where identifying potions shouldn't be a hassle and a lot of people use tube vials which sort nicely. Also, Healing is so much more useful than Evocation. (Except when Evocation is used as healing. Whatwhat golem community! /raises roof)

Also, let me throw in a contender for worst production skill: Create Trap. I have not seen anyone EVER purchase this skill because it requires either them or an OOG trap marshal to stand watch over it until popped.

 

[jpariury]

This past Oregon game, people were hurting for productionists w/ alchemy 9. Enslavements in use, by the black hats, the only npc source having a limited supply, charging 1.5 gold per, and nine gold to copy the recipe... people definitely were wishing they had a dedicated alchemist.

 

[Mike Ventrella]

We've also run some plotlines where the solution requires making an elixir that needs 9 levels of alchemy.

It's always good when Plot can find ways to make all skills useful!

 

[Libras]

We've also run some plotlines where the solution requires making an elixir that needs 9 levels of alchemy.

It's always good when Plot can find ways to make all skills useful!

Or modify production-based abilities so they feel useful all of the time?

EDIT: I'm looking at High Magic as inspiration for this.

 

[Wraith]

What is the motivation for a player to become an Herbalist (Potionmaking), Trap maker, Blacksmith or even an Alchemist? (I didn't include scroll making because that seems to be the least broken of them all)

The alchemist i can justify more than the others, though the way the game functions now, there isn't much use of getting more than three levels of Alchemy (to throw gasses) because they can just find stuff as treasure/gobbie what they need.

Potionmaking is the least working/most broken in my opinion because there is nothing in the list of potions that can't be done as a spell.

The issue you run into here, on both counts, is that you can only have a certain number of spells in memory per day. My rogue? Zero spells in memory. But he's carrying a dozen or so cure light wounds in vials, not to mention antidotes, spell shields, magic armors, endows, and the like. Yes, it's expensive, but on the other hand it is just a matter of trade. He's a blacksmith, trades his work to others for alchemy and potions. Others in my group do the same with scrolls.

All of these production skills are massively useful. After all, when your level 10 characters look at a powerful enemy, who is giving them the 'Go Away, Little Man' speech and suddenly start throwing Dragon's Breath scrolls and vorpal-coated crossbow bolts at 15+ damage a pop, it's a good moment. The real problem is that this style of play is coin-fed. It costs, and heavily to be able to play like that. On the plus side, it's still cheaper than being in the magic item race, so making sure you take home scrolls and components to sell and fund your style of play is great.

And as far as traps go... I'm not giving away my methodology, but there is damn near noone in the game who isn't a 2 shot kill at most with a trap. Just saying...

 

[Lurin]

As far as trap makers go, we have one dedicated one in SoMN that's managed to use his traps to do extremely significant damage to big bads multiple times. I can think of 4 times so far in his year and a half of playing where his traps have been very significant from a plot point of view, and not because we wrote it that way. (okay one time we wrote it that way, but that was probably the least cool one)

 

[kittenpunk2]

never enough of what you need.

the chapter i play in might be small with a player base of 30-50 depending on the event, but there never seems to be enough of the items needed, arrows potions scrolls. wile a many people have taken the skills and often 2x and 3x batch things, even with the supply found off monsters, the town is always desperately low on supply and stock piling what we can for the epic tasks we face now and then, just this last event the entire towns potions stock was uses and every last NPC potions makers stop at the same time, mostly for use in one fight, in addition most of the black smiths where busy cranking out more then the normal amount of arrows and near every last one was used. and by witch i mean 300-500 arrows and there is only a couple of archers around... 1-3

the couple of people that make scrolls are trying desperately to stock up the war fund for the impending fights, but scrolls still get used faster then they can be made or found.

wile there is only a couple of alchemists around they seem to make or find enough to keep there hands full most of the time... but when it comes to the big fights, there is never sufficient amount of gas globes.

there is not to many in fact i can only think of one trap maker for arch chapter and more then not his skills are only put to use testing found boxs for traps or picking there locks.... even when he takes the time to set up traps it seams like the monsters always take an other path...

some times u take a skill not because you want to use it to make funds but because you want to stay a live and when supply are desperately low even a black smith with only 1 level can batch arrows.
or potion maker can make cure lights, alchemist can make cure light elixir, scroll maker can make lights... for all the dark caves and pits the never ending hordes of bugs pore forth from....

i would not call one of the Productionists skills brown ever... in fact we need more supply are low and we are losing the fight. no mater what your reason for taking one of the skills is its going to end up benefiting the group and should never be seems as a weakness or being a wast of EXP. hell i wish there where more masters of such skills a round, we could use them.

nothing like dropping 8 gold on potions scrolls and elixirs only to use them on every one but you so that your friends stay up just a little longer and every one comes home alive and limping home summarized where not all rez-ing. then spending the last gold u have buying a round of drinks and trying to forget how many things just hit you and the sight of all your comrades bleeding out wile surrounded...

 

[jpariury]

And as far as traps go... I'm not giving away my methodology, but there is damn near noone in the game who isn't a 2 shot kill at most with a trap. Just saying...

Two shots? You might be doing wrong. I take 'em in one.

Part of the issue with scroll and potion production is that they're duplicating a thing that is also performable via other means: memorization and magic items. If any change were to be suggested, it should create uniquely-accessible abilities or effects (as is the case for dealing with Enslavement).

 

[Shandar]

"Here, take this Cause Minor Annoyance globe we just found on that bandit. I'm sure it will come in handy, right? By the way, whatever happened to all those Alchemical Solvents you found last month?"

Vs

"NAUSEANAUSEADOMINATEVERTIGOVERTIGORAAAAAAAAAAWR!"

That's why I take many levels of alchemy.

 

[Talen]

Production is all about being able to concentrate power.

Nothing going on? Make a bunch of stuff for later. Something big? Watch all that "for later" stuff hit the BBEG, at the same time. All for some coins.

Traps on the other hand have always been a problem. They're much more an anti-PC weapon than a PC one, and PC's can almost always just toss someone into it and Cure Light them afterwards.

 

[Ondreij]

Part of the issue with scroll and potion production is that they're duplicating a thing that is also performable via other means: memorization and magic items. If any change were to be suggested, it should create uniquely-accessible abilities or effects (as is the case for dealing with Enslavement).

I like the idea of unique, High-Skill production items.

Also, imagine if only a Master Scroll Maker could make Confine, Solidify (!!!), Magic Blade (!!!!), or Elemental Blade (!!!) scrolls - or a Master Potions Maker could make Earth Blade or Poison Shield potions.

What would be your perception of productionists, then?

 

[Jim]

Plot can do things to help, as mentioned above. We currently have a plotline where the players are attempting to get some artifacts that are powered by unique potions and scrolls that require higher levels of the skill to make.

 

[Wraith]

And as far as traps go... I'm not giving away my methodology, but there is damn near noone in the game who isn't a 2 shot kill at most with a trap. Just saying...

Two shots? You might be doing wrong. I take 'em in one.

Part of the issue with scroll and potion production is that they're duplicating a thing that is also performable via other means: memorization and magic items. If any change were to be suggested, it should create uniquely-accessible abilities or effects (as is the case for dealing with Enslavement).

Some things have a resist to blow through, or enough body to need the second explosive trap.

 

[Mobius]

meh, the only way Trap Making will ever be useful is if the restrictions against "combat traps" is lessened or the system is redesigned so a Hold is not necessary for each use

 

[Wraith]

That, I can actually agree with. Although what I really would like to see as an 'advance' trapmaking ability is the ability to move a set trap.

Although others might not like what I would do with it. :mrgreen:

 

[jpariury]

Also, imagine if only a Master Scroll Maker could make Confine, Solidify (!!!), Magic Blade (!!!!), or Elemental Blade (!!!) scrolls - or a Master Potions Maker could make Earth Blade or Poison Shield potions.

What would be your perception of productionists, then?

It wouldn't change. They're just doing something that can already be done by other means: memorization and magic items. Alchemy is the only way for players to access the Enslavement Antidote effect, ergo, there is function in having nine levels of alchemy - to produce that unique effect. My perception of productionists would change if, for instance, potions were the only way to get a Purify, or scrolls were the only way to get Lesser Investment.

Imagine a world where all weapon damage was capped at double its base limit: small weapons capped at 2, one-handed capped at 4, and two-handers capped at 6. Magic Aura only let you swing for Magic (no "Damage Aura"). Then, in order to use your profs beyond the weapon cap, you had to have a special weapon crafted that allowed you to do the cool stuff you spent build on. For every point of additional damage above the cap, you had to have a blacksmith dump 45pp into a weapon's cost. Add in that such weapons are always shatterable, regardless of any rituals on them. Then being a dedicated blacksmith has value. (Although, tbh, getting rid of "unshatterable" alone would go miles towards that.)

Alchemy has some cool, unique abilities: Paste of Stickiness, Oil of Slipperiness, Enslavement Antidote. Scroll-making and potion-making need something on par with that to make them primarily worthwhile, imo.

Some things have a resist to blow through, or enough body to need the second explosive trap.

That just means you didn't use enough boom the first time around.

I'm fifty-fifty on combat traps. I feel that they could be cool if used creatively (ala the old "Massive Mechanical Crossbow strapped to a tree"/"Big Damage Weapon Trap" tricks), but I also get that the Powers That Be generally intend for traps to be cool things you encounter in a dungeon crawl, not landmines. Personally, I prefer the proposal that makes them room-based effects with a maximum size restriction, but as I understand it, when that was proposed a ways back, it failed in some committee. *shrug* Might be time to re-propose it, though.