Dreamingfurther
Baron
Right Rob, thats the whole issue. Generally in my experiance the tag for these items (weapons, and rendered armor) has been the rep. Hopefully something more clear will come down on this from higher up eventually... =\
render and steeling/lost items
- Thread starter Frank Wiccan
- Start date
obcidian_bandit
Count
Weapons should never be given a pass for this. Weapons almost always cost less then $50, and you know exactly what you're getting into when you have items like that made. The book specifically addresses giving over weapons, and how if a new rep has to be made because the old one broke, it has to look exactly like the old one.
Armor is almost always very expensive, and has historically been exempt. There are very few other items that should be exempt. If something else is more expensive then that, why did you make it a magic item in the first place?
Consider the cheeziness that occurs without this rule (or when this rule is overlooked). I've seen people have their (oog) wedding rings tagged. Some people can't even take them off, let alone be willing to give them up 'til the end of game. People don't search/steal those items even if they're rogueing the person because they know it's jewelry the person wears oog. It makes the item effectively invisible and unstealable. I think that preventing that sort of cheese is the reason for the rule, not having people cough up their armor.
Armor is almost always very expensive, and has historically been exempt. There are very few other items that should be exempt. If something else is more expensive then that, why did you make it a magic item in the first place?
Consider the cheeziness that occurs without this rule (or when this rule is overlooked). I've seen people have their (oog) wedding rings tagged. Some people can't even take them off, let alone be willing to give them up 'til the end of game. People don't search/steal those items even if they're rogueing the person because they know it's jewelry the person wears oog. It makes the item effectively invisible and unstealable. I think that preventing that sort of cheese is the reason for the rule, not having people cough up their armor.
Kayden
Scholar
I would say that you might have to give up the rep until the end of the event. I mean, I gives a point to making your armor unique or notable in some way. I mean, if you steal Eldorion's or Andros' armor people are going to notice it if you ever wear it. So effectively its pointless to steal, because you'd get caught. if you render a simple piece of chainmail, and someone steals it. i think it would be within reason for them to substitue a similar rep. and I suppose if you didn't have any other armor reps, but you have armor tags....hmmm....guess there is wear the problem falls. If you didn't bring an extra rep? what do you do if your "rep" gets stolen?
Dreamingfurther said:
Or you have bought and someone else has cast a rit on without your permission. Seems a bit ripe for abuse, no? Goblins rogue you for your armor, and being a quasi-hardcore player, you make them take the rep. They take is back to their shaman, who decides to render it and give it to their commander. By the literal reading of the rules, that means that your rep is now, completely through the action of NPCs, campaign property. Same theory, even faster, would be a dragon mage walking through town throwing dragon magic renders on any rep he particularly likes.
I would definitely encourage the Owners Symposium and ARC to heavily consider just what this sort of rule, and the current ongoing state of production items in game, mean as far as the balance of arcane vs physical armor, as I know in the games I've been to this year, I've seen at least as much arcane as actual armor reps on PCs, if not more.
I have to agree with this one. If I had a rendered set of armor, and I got jumped, I would have no issues handing the rep (chain mesh shirt) over for a milited duration of time, and if it dosnt get found on someone, oh well, Ill just get them the tags in exchange for the shirt. People get non magic stuff stolen, and eventually you wander to NPC camp and get your rep back. No problem.
But if Im expected to donate a $200 shirt to get it rendered? Thats just not something Im willing to do. And since its supposed to be a full suit of armor at the value its rendered at, that is a major part of some players costuming!
But if Im expected to donate a $200 shirt to get it rendered? Thats just not something Im willing to do. And since its supposed to be a full suit of armor at the value its rendered at, that is a major part of some players costuming!
I honestly think that people are waaay overdoing this.
Most of the people who play this game are not jerks on an OOG level (character's not withstanding).
If someone steals your rendered armor, they will most likely give the rep back. Even easier in the case of NPCs.
In a worst case scenario, where the guy who takes it is a jerk, if it is the chapter's property, then the chapter can demand the rep back and return it to you.
I know that I would be less inclined to steal a magic item that I can't use, and in most cases, when people render armor, it is fairly distinctive. And if they Transfer Magic the render to something else (what a waste of a perfectly good ritual scroll), then the rep can be confiscated by the chapter and returned to its actual owner.
But, if I can steal the item, change the rep to whatever I want and walk around with my own armor (or weapon or shield or what have you) rendered, I'd be much more inclined to take it.
Honestly, its been done this way for years, and this problem has yet to be encountered, and I'm willing to bet there is more than one suit of rendered armor out there.
Most of the people who play this game are not jerks on an OOG level (character's not withstanding).
If someone steals your rendered armor, they will most likely give the rep back. Even easier in the case of NPCs.
In a worst case scenario, where the guy who takes it is a jerk, if it is the chapter's property, then the chapter can demand the rep back and return it to you.
I know that I would be less inclined to steal a magic item that I can't use, and in most cases, when people render armor, it is fairly distinctive. And if they Transfer Magic the render to something else (what a waste of a perfectly good ritual scroll), then the rep can be confiscated by the chapter and returned to its actual owner.
But, if I can steal the item, change the rep to whatever I want and walk around with my own armor (or weapon or shield or what have you) rendered, I'd be much more inclined to take it.
Honestly, its been done this way for years, and this problem has yet to be encountered, and I'm willing to bet there is more than one suit of rendered armor out there.
i'm not worried about the armor getting stolen OOG, more like..if it is stolen IG, and i get the rep back... it's engraved... so.. i can't technically wear it anymore because if said theif gets his own phys rep to match the tag description and engraves it... now there are two armors out there that tag could belong to.
I actually have experienced this first hand--well second hand I guess. I made a piece of costume for a friend. That friend decided to make that into a magic item. That item was stolen by another. The rep (because it was a magic item) was now the rightful property of the new owner. That player was not required to give my friend the rep while the magic item was valid.
After the rep expired, the player who had it would have given it back but it accidentally got lost. Sucks, but no hard feelings!
Now I will admit, I was really really pissed off when this happened. Not that the item was stolen. Hey it is an IG item--whatever it is a game! I was pissed that the time and money I put into crafting the rep was for naught because my bone headed friend made it into a magic item--knowing that it could be stolen.
So just consider that when you make your magic items. Perhaps you can make a cheap *** bracer that is part of a "suit" that is rendered and just have that item have the MI number. Thus that is the item that can be stolen and it is up to the "new owner" to rep the remaining points for the suit. I am not sure if that is allowed or not.
Until the rules are changed, that is how it is. Just got to work with the rules you have and make things accordingly.
Jess
After the rep expired, the player who had it would have given it back but it accidentally got lost. Sucks, but no hard feelings!
Now I will admit, I was really really pissed off when this happened. Not that the item was stolen. Hey it is an IG item--whatever it is a game! I was pissed that the time and money I put into crafting the rep was for naught because my bone headed friend made it into a magic item--knowing that it could be stolen.
So just consider that when you make your magic items. Perhaps you can make a cheap *** bracer that is part of a "suit" that is rendered and just have that item have the MI number. Thus that is the item that can be stolen and it is up to the "new owner" to rep the remaining points for the suit. I am not sure if that is allowed or not.
Until the rules are changed, that is how it is. Just got to work with the rules you have and make things accordingly.
Jess
See now you have to wonder "well if thats the case, does that mean that if I take my coif off and leave it on a table and someone walks away with it knowing its a magic item, does it and every other piece of my armor (shirt pants bracers, ect) need to have the same MI number on it?"
Yes, Im aware that this is, in essence a non-issue that can be delt with simply by everyone not being a asshat, and hopefully a CS rep with even the people skills of a demented llama could get this all straightened out with little effort anyway. So call this a speculative conversation.
Yes, Im aware that this is, in essence a non-issue that can be delt with simply by everyone not being a asshat, and hopefully a CS rep with even the people skills of a demented llama could get this all straightened out with little effort anyway. So call this a speculative conversation.
The rules seem perfectly clear. If someone steals the rendered armor they can keep the rep. Hopefully they wouldn't want to but if they did there would be big problems. When I turned my armor into a magic item I got it spirit locked. Your options are to take your chances or to not make it a magic item in the first place.
A lot of people say that armor has historically been the exception. I've been playing since 1996 and I never heard or armor being an exemption. If it's got an item number, be prepared to give up the rep is all I've ever heard.
Or we can change the rule like Erica is trying to do but it will need to be worded pretty carefully.
A lot of people say that armor has historically been the exception. I've been playing since 1996 and I never heard or armor being an exemption. If it's got an item number, be prepared to give up the rep is all I've ever heard.
Or we can change the rule like Erica is trying to do but it will need to be worded pretty carefully.
Dreamingfurther
Baron
Well maybe the rule is clear for now. But it seems like a situation where the rule says one thing but in reality everyone does something else. (Everyone saying that "armor has been the exception.) Basically yes people could take the expensive armor rep but no one does. Now there are more than a few situations and rules like this, (body points, life spells and potions) but this situation has the posibility to majorly screw over someone who works supper hard or spends lots of money on costume/armor rep'ing if someone decides they want to use the letter of the law rule against them.
Now, I feel on a personal level, if I want to get my new full suit of armor that I'm making rendered, I not only have to find a render ritual but a Spirit Link/Lock and extender as well. Wow great, once again why am I now not just going with Arcane Armor? :? I just feel like the way this rule is set up it ecourages not using armor and cool costuming which I don't think is what we really want the rules to be doing.
Obviously if the rule is clear and this is the way it is for now I'll take that. But I hope Erica is able to make some headway, and with very carefull wording this could be changed so that it doesn't look so bad on the face of things.
Now, I feel on a personal level, if I want to get my new full suit of armor that I'm making rendered, I not only have to find a render ritual but a Spirit Link/Lock and extender as well. Wow great, once again why am I now not just going with Arcane Armor? :? I just feel like the way this rule is set up it ecourages not using armor and cool costuming which I don't think is what we really want the rules to be doing.
Obviously if the rule is clear and this is the way it is for now I'll take that. But I hope Erica is able to make some headway, and with very carefull wording this could be changed so that it doesn't look so bad on the face of things.
I don't like the rule either. Made turning my 30 point suit of armor into an item a big pain. But wouldn't it be 10 times easier to get rid of the armor breach rule?
I mean if you want to encourage people to wear nice suits of armor, letting them render it without worrying about losing the rep is good. But if armor just did not breach then more people would wear it and no one would bother rendering their suits and this would mostly be a non-issue. I suppose people might still want a render for that occasional destroy armor though...
One reason I prefer making armor unbreachable and simply not allowing it to be rendered or turned into a magic item is that it seems too weird if a PC jumps me and I have over my tag but not my armor, he now has a magic item he can't use unless he goes and spends $500 on a custom suit of armor that looks like mine. And that player should be able to use the magic item he stole plus he shouldn't have to spend $500 on an armor phy rep he might not have chosen on his own in order to use the item.
I mean if you want to encourage people to wear nice suits of armor, letting them render it without worrying about losing the rep is good. But if armor just did not breach then more people would wear it and no one would bother rendering their suits and this would mostly be a non-issue. I suppose people might still want a render for that occasional destroy armor though...
One reason I prefer making armor unbreachable and simply not allowing it to be rendered or turned into a magic item is that it seems too weird if a PC jumps me and I have over my tag but not my armor, he now has a magic item he can't use unless he goes and spends $500 on a custom suit of armor that looks like mine. And that player should be able to use the magic item he stole plus he shouldn't have to spend $500 on an armor phy rep he might not have chosen on his own in order to use the item.
Mike Ventrella
Duke
The main reason for the rule in the first place was so that if someone stole your item, they would have to use it and you'd be able to identify it. Otherwise, if all they took was the tag, someone could steal your very distinctive armor and then wear something looking completely different and walk right by the originial owner and they'd never know.
However, some good points have been made in this thread and are being discussed by the Owners now.
However, some good points have been made in this thread and are being discussed by the Owners now.
Dreamingfurther
Baron
Fearless Leader said:
Thanks for letting us know Mike!
That is encouraging.Anyways it is definately true that without getting the rep it is nearly impossible to identify. Still what I said about tons of money is true...
As for breaching in general I believe that really has to stay. Otherwise there is no way that people will go through armor enough. And there is no way to show the wear and tear that armor gets as it is used and gradually breaks down. Suddenly there would be a huge armor glut in the system and the folks who used to blacksmith it are significantly hurt. I've played a game for a little bit in which there was no armor breaching. It didn't really work.
Plot could make sure to send out more destroy spells if it were that big an issue but as far as I can tell there is already too much armor in the game (well in HQ). I lost all my treasure when I moved and then played 2 events this summer. Despite being a fighter who wears armor I have about 10 20-30 point suits. They didn't come from blcaksmithing.
And armor is the only item in game that wears down. Weapons and shields don't.
And armor is the only item in game that wears down. Weapons and shields don't.
Dreamingfurther said:
Dreamingfurther
Baron
Well I would argue that weapons and shields are much more frequently targeted by Shatter spells. And actually I do have some weapons that expire.
I could not see plot sending out monsters with more destroy spells to balance the amount of armor in the game because comments have also been made about sending out monsters with Destroy Magic dragon spells to try and balance the number of MI in the game and they have been very firm that would never happen. (And I can understand why)
You can certainly get your suits of armor from non-blacksmithing means. But why take away the few master blacksmiths ability to feel cool and useful by being able to make big suits of armor, by changing the rule and having armor not breach, and therefore never "run out"?
I could not see plot sending out monsters with more destroy spells to balance the amount of armor in the game because comments have also been made about sending out monsters with Destroy Magic dragon spells to try and balance the number of MI in the game and they have been very firm that would never happen. (And I can understand why)
You can certainly get your suits of armor from non-blacksmithing means. But why take away the few master blacksmiths ability to feel cool and useful by being able to make big suits of armor, by changing the rule and having armor not breach, and therefore never "run out"?
I'm not sure we can take this coolness away from blacksmiths because I'm not convinced it's there at all. I don't see players giving blacksmiths a whole lot of business. Plot could change that by sending in NPCs who want to buy or trade for armor from the famous smith, x, however.
At the HQ tourney event, there were 60 something PCs. There was a blacksmithing contest (actually weaponsmithing and armorsmithing). I have blacksmithing 1 and was the only entrant in either contest. If blacksmithing made players feel cool, I think we would have had a better turnout at those 2 contests.
So if you ask me, blacksmithing is already broken. No need to leave it alone!
Now here's an idea off the top of my head. Give characters with enough levels of blacksmith the ability to create unbreachable armor or unshatterable weapons and shields. That's something that could actually make them cool. Instead of render scrolls and cats, we could reintroduce mithril or something because it should take some effort gathering mats for this unshatterable yet non-magical stuff.
At the HQ tourney event, there were 60 something PCs. There was a blacksmithing contest (actually weaponsmithing and armorsmithing). I have blacksmithing 1 and was the only entrant in either contest. If blacksmithing made players feel cool, I think we would have had a better turnout at those 2 contests.
So if you ask me, blacksmithing is already broken. No need to leave it alone!
Now here's an idea off the top of my head. Give characters with enough levels of blacksmith the ability to create unbreachable armor or unshatterable weapons and shields. That's something that could actually make them cool. Instead of render scrolls and cats, we could reintroduce mithril or something because it should take some effort gathering mats for this unshatterable yet non-magical stuff.
Dreamingfurther said: