[.11] Rogue State

DiscOH said:
I don't know what your backstab / proficiency balance looks like, but if you're using riposte as your per day takeout fuel scout eviscerate is better than pretty much any pure scout assassinate.
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Sure but as a rogue I get the same number of ripostes plus more burst attacks like assassinate.

Following up on this, parry is 4 more xp for a rogue than a scout, but dodge / evade is only 1 more xp for a scout than a rogue. If you really want to min max defensives, a scout probably does a better job at that too
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Parry is 90% the same as evade. My point is a pure rogue gets twice the number of dodges and evades as a scout, more then making up for the parries.

I will be around 430 build when 2.0 hits. So my scout looks like:

Weapon skills
8 prof
5 backstabs
8 parry
6 evade
4 dodge
4 mettle
1 eviscerate
1 doom blow
10 riposte

So I can do scout hitting 10s/20s with melee and 20 damage with a bow.

My Rogue looks like:
So Rogue...
weapon skills
3 prof
8 backstabs
4 sleep/paralysis
4 Silence/stun
8 Improved Assassinate
9 Assassinates
9 dodge
13 evade
1 eviscerate
1 doom blow
12 ripostes

So swing 5 from the front, 21 from the back. Alot more burst attacks.

So my scout has 22 defenses. While my rogue has 21. For doing 5 less from the front, my rogue nets 20+ more burst damage/KO effects as well as more then double the amount of the best defense.
 
DiscOH said:
I feel vindicated still in saying the amalgamation of xp costs that is "the Rogue" is over shadowed at pretty much everything people have suggested the math is supposed to enable.
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Sure in a pure static damage matters system maybe. But your math is just thoerycrafting. You are stuck in the current mind set that static damage is King, but we dont know if this will still be the case in 2.0. It could be all about per day burst and defenses. In which Rogue clearly is the stronger choice.
 
8 Improved Assassinates?

Say “two hundred twenty five Assassinate” before you land a shot, man.

Ditch that last IA and get yourself another Sleep/Paralysis Blow. :p
 
Each one adds +25, so you want +175 to round it off to 200. So IA 7 (or 9, if you want 250).
 
Draven said:
My only issue with Rogue is that Riposte is clearly a Stealth skill that counts as Martial XP. I wish there were two separate skills, one that focused on using Stealth abilities and gave Stealth XP, and one that did the same for Martial.
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Yeah it is really awkward my full rogue build has 50 points into martial skills because of this, reducing my ability to buy more rogue skills. Where as my fighter does get benefit from them letting me get more slays etc.

This seems flawed to me.
 
Rogue is underpowered in 1.3, but it has a unique game of positional skill and high-risk playstyle. Of course, right now often that playstyle doesn't come up because we are fighting undead, or things with alien metabolisms, or things resistant to alchemy, but sometimes it does and it's a fun challenge that is worth it to me playing a build that is otherwise suboptimal in every way. I get that it caused arguments and complaints, but if I cared about that I wouldn't have played that game. I've resisted playing an optimized build and picking up the OP sword-and-board for years, because rogue entertains me more. I didn't care that sometimes it didn't work. If anything, that is the "risk" part of the risk-reward equation.

It was the opposite of having to track a whole bunch of 1x per day abilities.

This rules set removes that playstyle entirely, and in return I get... to be a subpar scout in the rogue dance. Whee. I think the changes to Evade contribute to this too: Evade was great, and it was especially great for running away, whereas now it's just a subpar version of the fighter skill. Of the abilities left, Dodge is just about the only thing that remains from how I played rogue.

I especially am concerned about low-level rogue. What makes a rogue walking in off the street different than a fighter walking in off the street, except that they have less armor, less body and paid more for their fighting style? (p.s. why is florentine cheaper for fighters than rogues? Shouldn't it be the other way around?) What about them is rogue-like? What style of play is supported or encouraged? Right now every rogue can walk into game with Waylay and they are A Rogue, the same way a fighter can walk in with a sword and shield and be A Fighter and a celestialist can walk in with a wand and be A Scholar and a healer can walk in with First Aid and keep people from dying like A Healer. Three of those are still going to work.

Right now chances are I'm just going to go Adept and play with Enhanced Strike and United Blow: at least it has a theme.
 
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(Also, Fear/Berserk and Sleep strikes don't work for MWEs, which is definitely coloring my impression of how many KOs the class actually has.)
 
I do think there is the seed of a different style of melee fighting class here, sort of a Swashbuckler to the Fighter's Soldier. I could imagine if rogues got cheaper edge weapons than fighters while fighters had cheaper blunt weapons and rogues got cheaper florentine/two weapon style to fighter's cheaper shield, it would go with the positioning requirements for abilities and create a mobility-oriented fighting class. Reading the book, it would be clear what kind of person might want to play that and why.

Maybe add a capstone ability that let leather count as one armor class up from where it is, so they had schtick as being quasi-unarmored.

I think it is potentially playable, and even fun; I just don't think it is a rogue as we had played them. But maybe we can lean into that and embrace it and have two distinct styles of effective melee.
 
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Evade is a subpar version of Parry?

What?

Evade is -easily- superior to Parry. Sure, you can’t protect an ally with it, but

1) You can get them more often
2) They avoid Massive, unlike Parry

Rogues have the superior production skill in alchemy, which has insane debilitation in the forms of coatings (which got boosted for arrows), and gasses.

Rogues are dodgy, tricky, and dangerous to ignore. That’s their advantage. They’ll make the fighter’s job easier by spinning the enemy and keeping them from defending themselves effectively. They’ll still able to do a good amount of back damage if they want to. They have the equivalent of Cloak vs Return in the form of Counteract, which I think a lot of people are underestimating. Retribution is definitely a great Rogue ritual, the synergy there is unreal.

I am definitely looking forward to playing a Rogue.
 
Mori said:
(Also, Fear/Berserk and Sleep strikes don't work for MWEs, which is definitely coloring my impression of how many KOs the class actually has.)
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This is factually untrue, at least as far as the national rules are conceded.
 
I'm glad you are looking forward to it, and like I said above by embracing Rogue as a different play style of melee fighter I think there is a lot of potential there. It is just unrelated to the rogue game many of us have been playing.
 
The .11b packet says Evade can be used against any Weapon Qualifier attack, so as long as the Massive comes from a Weapon, I don't see why you couldn't use Evade against it.
 
Sage of Legaia said:
The .11b packet says Evade can be used against any Weapon Qualifier attack, so as long as the Massive comes from a Weapon, I don't see why you couldn't use Evade against it.
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Well So does parry it would seem.

The “Damage” qualifier has been replaced by a “Weapon” qualifier, which is the default for any weapon swing (or bow shot) unless it is explicitly changed to some other qualifier (like “Spell” for a Spell Strike). This means that most weapon swings will just have a number and effect (just like today) – for example, “3 Normal” or “20 Silver”. Some defenses – like Parry and Riposte or other weapon-specific defenses – have changed to specify that they work against any attack with either the “Weapon” qualifier or the “Poison” qualifier (only if the attack is made with the physical delivery). This helps eliminate some exceptions.
 
It is weird how the Paper rock scissors has changed. Rogues now have a ton of defenses against melee with evade. Fighters have a ton of Defenses against spells via Mettle and spell parry. And casters have almost no defense against melee so they are just meat.
 
Tantarus said:
Well So does parry it would seem.

The “Damage” qualifier has been replaced by a “Weapon” qualifier, which is the default for any weapon swing (or bow shot) unless it is explicitly changed to some other qualifier (like “Spell” for a Spell Strike). This means that most weapon swings will just have a number and effect (just like today) – for example, “3 Normal” or “20 Silver”. Some defenses – like Parry and Riposte or other weapon-specific defenses – have changed to specify that they work against any attack with either the “Weapon” qualifier or the “Poison” qualifier (only if the attack is made with the physical delivery). This helps eliminate some exceptions.
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In 1.3, the descriptions are similar; Evade defends against Massive not because Evade says it does, but because Massive says it does. Massive’s description states that it beats Parry and Magic Armor, but does not beat Dodge or Evade (and I think Phase?).
 
So assuming this is correct. Rogues truly are far better defended against melee then fighters... Seems Legit....

So Scout it is then... If not rogue...
 
Massive can be blocked by a Phase, and does specifically state that while you can call Parry (or the 1.3 Riposte) against it, you still take the damage (and if Riposte is used, you don't return the damage). It also implies that the primary uses of those skills against Massive is to take the damage for someone else (perhaps your squishy Scholar?), in particular because it specifies that it goes to your Armor first before going to Body.

On a semi-related note, both Parry and Riposte in 1.3 state in their skill descriptions that they don't prevent or return the damage from a Massive attack.
 
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