Spirit Forge - what's your opinion?

markusdark said:
I feel that the chapter needs a high level C-caster because we need more damage dealing spell casters as well as someone who can cast rituals and have other interactions with plot/npc's that only comes with high level ritual casters.
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I think that if you're doing it for "the chapter", if you enjoy playing your character as-is, then don't change. Trust your plot team to adjust to what the players have in terms of resources. I don't believe a plot team would create an issue where the expected resolution is for a player to gobbie up a spirit-forge. If there is an issue, I suspect it'd be a minor one that could encourage newer players and/or existing ones that are waffling about to start making different future choices.

The only reason to gobbie-spirit-forge, imo, is because you think it will increase your fun. If you're doing it to overcome a perceived obstacle, then you're probably doing it wrong.

Otoh, if the scrolls and components start popping up in game, and your npc mentors start dropping hints, that's a whole other ball of wax.
 
phedre said:
The biggest reason I disagree with allowing someone to gobby a scroll and comps and a catalyst that come out of the treasure policy is that you're effectively taking it out of the hands of another player who should have found it or earned it via In Game methods.
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Says who? We were just having a discussion on another thread about people spending gobbies to buy modules, why can't they buy modules that very likely include specific treasure? No one says that they have to do it in an entirely out of game fashion. A Spirit Forge requires some IG explanation, and I don't think I've seen very many instances of people buying them completely 'behind the scenes.' The treasure policy says that, on average, a certain amount of treasure should go out per person and per level. No one should feel entitled to specific things that go out just because they showed up. At best, they should expect to average out to their level's contribution over several games.

(In larger chapters, where the '2 catalysts of each type per year' thing is an issue, I could foresee this being a touchier subject. Out here, we probably drop less then half our allotted catalysts each year because our players would rather have the reagents.)

phedre said:
Scrolls come out of the weekend's production, but comps and cats have a separate calculation that puts them into game! Their possible existence is based on player attendance
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FYI, scrolls come out on a 'per player' basis, just like components.
 
I think Lauren was pretty clear about some of the issues: it promotes favoritism towards staff members and financially well off players for whom it is comparatively easy to contribute to the game. Further, because both the scroll and cat are both very specific items that come out per player policy, this is a lot like buying out a high score on a bell curve. It seems skeevy all over.

As far as buying modules with gobbies goes, I personally feel that getting plot should be earned through participation in plot, either by actively getting involved or submitting a good character history and regular between even updates. Even beyond that, buying a module at least requires the player to likely do some work and get some other people to help, and keeps the process at least partially in game. Straight out buying a rare scroll and catalyst diminishes the integrity of the game. Even if the chapter is small now, it could grow, and allowing something sketchy because you can let it slide for the moment sets a poor precedent both for the chapter in question and, I feel, the alliance as a whole.
 
This is my philosophy too. It's not cheesy to try to have fun (as long as you're not cheating or otherwise interfering with other people's fun). Spirit forging shouldn't bother anyone else so just ask yourself if you'll have more fun after.
obcidian_bandit said:
First: Spirit forge if you think you'll have more fun playing. Really, it's up to you.
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why shouldn't it bother anyone else?

if your IG character has known Fighter McFIghterson for 10 years watching him crush legions of evil with his mighty sword, and then on random Tuesday afternoon FIghter McFighterson shows up to town as the greatest spellcaster who ever lived and can't even lift a sword because of it's mighty girth, that's going to bother me. I'd walk up to Mr. Mcfighterson and say "hey chap, what gives?" and maybe get some IG reason about "magic changed him". Ok, ok, magic is wacky, I'll swallow that horse biscuit this time. Now Wednesday Suzy McThieferson comes to town and oh- what's this? she can't pick locks anymore.... because.... of magic.... wow... those crazy wizards.. what will they think of next?

obviously my example is extreme, but I saw these very things happen when the new rules came out and i didn't like it then either.
 
Robb Graves said:
why shouldn't it bother anyone else?

if your IG character has known Fighter McFIghterson for 10 years watching him crush legions of evil with his mighty sword, and then on random Tuesday afternoon FIghter McFighterson shows up to town as the greatest spellcaster who ever lived and can't even lift a sword because of it's mighty girth, that's going to bother me. I'd walk up to Mr. Mcfighterson and say "hey chap, what gives?" and maybe get some IG reason about "magic changed him". Ok, ok, magic is wacky, I'll swallow that horse biscuit this time. Now Wednesday Suzy McThieferson comes to town and oh- what's this? she can't pick locks anymore.... because.... of magic.... wow... those crazy wizards.. what will they think of next?

obviously my example is extreme, but I saw these very things happen when the new rules came out and i didn't like it then either.
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Its crazy how the "non roleplaying" Rit does just the opposite. It ensues roleplay. It gives you reasons to talk, question, hate/love other players. If one day Rob you decided that you were not going to cast spell (but didn't forge), should that bother me OOG? IG sure. It allows for Pc on Pc roleplay, but OOg, while I might care what Rob does, it shouldn't affect me. What ever makes you happy and still playing the game.
 
it's a matter of believability. it's the same thing as if race changes were running rampant, or your plot team decided that nothing was ever going to remain the same IG (this might make a fun plot arch, but eventually it has to end). From an IG perspective if you can't rely on some small level of a (fantastic) reality with rules and structure, it gets less and less believable and therefor (IMHO... which is exactly what this thread was asking for) less fun.
 
I suppose if you're viewing it as a "slippery slope" type of situation then this is a concern. If race-changes really were running rampant or if (in your example) a spirit forge took place every day, or just very often, I could definitely see it becoming an issue, but I don't think one person getting a spirit forge is a problem from that perspective.

-Nick Bond
Seattle Plot
 
I can't really understand why it would bother someone OOG if someone else forges but that's fine - there's plenty in life I don't grok.

If I understand correctly, Robb, you're saying it would be better to let people totally rewrite their characters, new skills, new race, new history, new name, new everything. Then you don't have to worry about your fighter friend suddenly becoming the best caster ever - it's just that your fighter friend retired and some uber caster showed up.

Personally none of that would bother me if I knew my friend was playing a character s/he enjoyed more than the old one. Plain forge or total rewrite wouldn't bother me at all.
Robb Graves said:
it's a matter of believability. it's the same thing as if race changes were running rampant, or your plot team decided that nothing was ever going to remain the same IG (this might make a fun plot arch, but eventually it has to end). From an IG perspective if you can't rely on some small level of a (fantastic) reality with rules and structure, it gets less and less believable and therefor (IMHO... which is exactly what this thread was asking for) less fun.
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I suppose if you're viewing it as a "slippery slope" type of situation then this is a concern. If race-changes really were running rampant or if (in your example) a spirit forge took place every day, or just very often, I could definitely see it becoming an issue, but I don't think one person getting a spirit forge is a problem from that perspective.

-Nick Bond
Seattle Plot
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Nor do I, i worry more about the precedent.

on a side note, I personally believe things like Race changes and Spirit forges should be incredibly difficult to get IG (plot ritual only) and should not be given as buy able rewards for any reason. luckily for fans of these rits, I'm not in charge and never will be. :mrgreen:

If I understand correctly, Robb, you're saying it would be better to let people totally rewrite their characters, new skills, new race, new history, new name, new everything. Then you don't have to worry about your fighter friend suddenly becoming the best caster ever - it's just that your fighter friend retired and some uber caster showed up.
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that would work for me. but then again... see above.
 
Robb Graves said:
why shouldn't it bother anyone else?

if your IG character has known Fighter McFIghterson for 10 years watching him crush legions of evil with his mighty sword, and then on random Tuesday afternoon FIghter McFighterson shows up to town as the greatest spellcaster who ever lived and can't even lift a sword because of it's mighty girth, that's going to bother me. I'd walk up to Mr. Mcfighterson and say "hey chap, what gives?" and maybe get some IG reason about "magic changed him". Ok, ok, magic is wacky, I'll swallow that horse biscuit this time. Now Wednesday Suzy McThieferson comes to town and oh- what's this? she can't pick locks anymore.... because.... of magic.... wow... those crazy wizards.. what will they think of next?

obviously my example is extreme, but I saw these very things happen when the new rules came out and i didn't like it then either.
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Yeah, I agree. I hate Spirit Forge. It just seems so antithical to story telling and roleplaying. It seems like the kind of thing you'd find in a computer game, not in a game where we are trying to make our magical world as believable as possible. We allowed it when the rules changed and while some players really took advantage of it, most were very good and didn't make huge changes in their characters.

I am in the minority here of course, and I can never convince the Owners to get rid of it.

Other than that, I don't want to comment because we're discussing the GS thing on the Owners Board now.
 
*Sigh*

I gotta learn to keep my mouth shut. Seems just about every time I post something here, it starts getting discussed on the owners board. ;)

Now here's my IG reason for my spirit forge.

My character has a bum leg. He's been told he can't serve in the military. Hence why he became a bartender and a production monkey - if he can't swing the sword, he'll make the swords for others to swing. Well during one very powerful battle, he was dragged along and, well, he got the "adventurer's high" and wants to go adventuring full time now. He spent most of his time in the 'big event' casting from scrolls and figures not only could he be a good celestial caster but also that with some of the magic around, he could research a cure for his leg and in the meantime use a golem to get around without a limp.

However, with the 'diminishing returns' of the XP system, to try and begin learning magic at this level would require probably around 3 times the amount of time it would take me to get there with a brand new character if I kept all my other skills. But luckily there's a magical ritual I can search out and then follow my character's dream. However, throughout the alliance I have contributed over 50 masks, a dozen specialized props, a score of tabards, a couple of personalized weapons and more elf ears than I can remember. With all of this, I can't spend the 1000 or so gobbies to get a race change that is totally within my character's concept?

I don't see this as being an issue with Plinky McPotionwriter becoming Plinky McFingerwiggles.
 
The sad part is that you had a really good question: to spirit forge or not to spirit forge for what you consider the sake of your chapter... it just got eclipsed by this whole spending gobbies to do it thing.

Were I owner/gm/otherwise heavily involved in a chapter that I regularly played in, and I thought the player base would enjoy the game more by my spirit forging a character, so long as it fit the concept (not Sneaky McRoguerton to Benny Healerguy) I'd probably strongly consider it.

It is always possible to have an NPC cast in some sort of upper-level guild role, if you think it would significantly impede your fun to forge.
 
phedre said:
It is always possible to have an NPC cast in some sort of upper-level guild role, if you think it would significantly impede your fun to forge.
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So what you're saying is to ask Plot to give me a spirit forge and if they feel it is something that would work in the game, they'd do it without me having to spend my gobbies? I'm all for that! Of course, I might have to pay the NPC for the work but luckily I can turn my gobbies into cash - which has me once again seeing that blurred line of "what's the diff?"
 
your IG explanation is fine. If there was a rit somewhere and an NPC came in and performed it for you, great, seems fair, and has an IG explanation.

here's why i wouldn't do it though:

your chapter has a lack of high level C casters. maybe one of the C casters who is not so high level looks around and also notices this.... he/she then realizes.. "holy crap... I am the only cannon here. I need to get my butt going and i could be the most powerful wizard in the chap-ah...crap... guy that plays all the time and has super high level character forged and is now the cannon... sigh.."

your chapter has a lack of high level C casters. plot realizes this and writes interesting stories around why this is happening, and C-Wizards become super cool and feared because they are so rare. The town's battle tactics have to adjust, it becomes a magic-light campaign of awesomeness. people rave about it and want to become the first high C-Caster in the land.. huzzah.

i could think of lots of ways i'd rather see it go down. but then again, i'm not at your chapter, and this is only my opinion, so ::shrug::
 
And after discussing things here, I 110% agree. In fact, I have decided not to Spirit Forge the character and introduce a new (well really old low level character) and now have 4 on the books. I'm now just arguing about the gobbies for rit thing since I seem to have stirred up this mess. (which I'll do in another thread now).

I really wish I could just pay the grand and not run games so I could be part of the owner's board and not bore the general public with my rantings. :)
 
Fearless Leader said:
a game where we are trying to make our magical world as believable as possible.
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This part made me giggle. :lol:

A magical world can explain anything believably. ;) Because, hey, it's magic!

Unless, of course, you want to make magic a science. That would require a lot of discussions and writing and collaboration to ensure that everyone is on the same page and when a question comes up it can universally be answered. I bet figuring out the in's and out's of magic as a science could easily fill the equivalent of several math and science books. My guess is at least three books per school, plus another couple of books that works out the differences between how Celestial and Earth/Necromancy operate and perhaps one or two on the Earth/Necromancy duality.

As opposed to the current superstitious beliefs that are different in every chapter. Example: does necromancy corrupt the earth? Some say yes, some say no, and there is no way to prove it.
 
markusdark said:
So what you're saying is to ask Plot to give me a spirit forge and if they feel it is something that would work in the game, they'd do it without me having to spend my gobbies?
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I don't know about anyone else, but that's pretty much what I said. I don't know of any challenge that is written with the resolution being "someone spends gobbies". :)

What's the diff? It's the opportunity to write a plot line vs. not.
 
Alavatar said:
Fearless Leader said:
a game where we are trying to make our magical world as believable as possible.
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This part made me giggle. :lol:

A magical world can explain anything believably. ;) Because, hey, it's magic!
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I am fully aware of what I wrote and chose my words accordingly.

The magical world still needs to be believable and consistent or else it's just not as much fun. Pulling solutions out of the air and just excusing it away by saying "Hey it's magic!" doesn't satisfy me or most players I would venture.

I write novels based on the world of Fortannis. No reader would accept it if I suddenly had my characters change race or skills. (I can't think of any fantasy fiction where that has happened, can you?) Nor would my readers be happy if I solved the plotline by having something unexpected happen and explain it away by saying "Look, it's magic!"

Well, I'd like the plots in my game to be just as consistent and believable. I think that's a good goal. I would hope most players would agree.
 
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