Spirit Forge - what's your opinion?

Auric

Administrator
Alliance General Manager
Alliance Logistics
I can't think of any fantasy fiction where that has happened, can you?
Who says Alliance has to go by what others have gone by? Why can't the alliance create it's own special things, especially when the game depends on it's players so much to keep it alive. You want to keep your dedicated players playing, they bring new people to the game and support chapters so they can continue to run. When these players get bored with their skills but have dedicated years into their character development, they don't want to just give that all up and start new.

Even to reference a popular game right now, World of Warcraft allows you to change race/class. They have learned that people will just quit when they get bored, changing something like this might renew their fun and love for the game, and more importantly continue to play and support the game.


Matt
 

jpariury

Duke
Fearless Leader said:
No reader would accept it if I suddenly had my characters change race or skills. (I can't think of any fantasy fiction where that has happened, can you?)
Bifrost Guardian series has a young American soldier in Vietnam transported back and placed in the body of a Norwegian elven swordsman. Pretty much any form of European fae lore has race changes, personality shifts, loss of memories on how to do things, etc. Eddings Belgarion-centric stuff goes on about how your mind, thoughts, and instincts are shaped by the form you take. Race changes are fairly common, to be honest. Vikki Pettersen's Zodiac series has mechanics for losing one's abilities and gaining new ones (such as regeneration and the ability to form walls out of the soil around you) , off the top of my head. I'm reasonably certain the general concept is nothing new.
 

Talen

Adept
markusdark said:
Talen said:
I've always looked at forges being good for one reason and one only- letting a character that's unplayable be respent.
No character is ever 'Unplayable'. It is just less min/maxed than others.
By "unplayable", I mean "physically unable to do so".

Someone now in a wheelchair makes a lousy sword and board fighter, for example.
 
Fearless Leader said:
The magical world still needs to be believable and consistent or else it's just not as much fun. Pulling solutions out of the air and just excusing it away by saying "Hey it's magic!" doesn't satisfy me or most players I would venture.

I write novels based on the world of Fortannis. No reader would accept it if I suddenly had my characters change race or skills. (I can't think of any fantasy fiction where that has happened, can you?) Nor would my readers be happy if I solved the plotline by having something unexpected happen and explain it away by saying "Look, it's magic!"

Well, I'd like the plots in my game to be just as consistent and believable. I think that's a good goal. I would hope most players would agree.

I can think of many, many examples of fantasy stories where magic is represented as something other than regimented and exact. Many of them make magic out to be mysterious, mutable and more than a little dangerous. Further, the concept of defeating an enemy by stripping away their powers is quite common; stripping away powers to create a blank slate for new ones is not a very far step forward. We as a game have already put effort into explaining away all the limiting things about our magic system that make little or no sense, like "Flamebolts can fell trolls because they are vulnerable to fire, but cannot light a candle," or "Cure Disease only actually cure the Necromantic effect Disease and not, for example, pneumonia," or even "Two weeks ago, I could cast an Endow spell, but not Light. Today..."

Personally, I think we sacrifice plenty of possible interesting and useful spells and rituals because of the constraints of reality and the changing of the rules. Are you really suggesting we also limit ourselves to those things that are simply easy to explain? We can move spirits into and out of bottles and statues, we can imbue them with powers, we can temper them into great strength, we can send them from one circle to another and then instantly pull them back, we can render them into wraiths and skeletons and zombies and back again, we can reverse the very nature of them a single ritual; why is it so unreasonable that we be able to rewrite them as well?
 

Talen

Adept
Auric said:
I can't think of any fantasy fiction where that has happened, can you?
Who says Alliance has to go by what others have gone by? Why can't the alliance create it's own special things, especially when the game depends on it's players so much to keep it alive. You want to keep your dedicated players playing, they bring new people to the game and support chapters so they can continue to run. When these players get bored with their skills but have dedicated years into their character development, they don't want to just give that all up and start new.

Even to reference a popular game right now, World of Warcraft allows you to change race/class. They have learned that people will just quit when they get bored, changing something like this might renew their fun and love for the game, and more importantly continue to play and support the game.

Matt
And at that point, it becomes a tool to min/max. WoW does have race/class changes, but that's because the skill and ability bases for both can and do often change radically- to the point where character builds really DO become unplayable. Thus, being able to respend points/race/class change.

Spirit Forge is kinda jarring. There's a plague killing the elves? Spirit Forge em into hoblings till the disease passes. Panterghasts hunting that innocent dwarf? No problem. Need a sudden mastery of the mystical arts? BAM, you're a super-scholar as the OP put it.

It's optimization in ritual form and it gets around a lot of things that IMHO, "a wizard did it" shouldn't solve. If anything, I think it should have more risks and invite visits from creatures of order and fate that don't appreciate you messing with your destiny.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Talen,

That is an awesome idea. I'm sure your local plot team would accept (and likely pay you good gobbies) if you would write an encounter or series of encounters revolving around people spirit forging being "a cheat against fate" or whatever.

Stephen
 

MKing

Scout
Talen said:
And at that point, it becomes a tool to min/max. WoW does have race/class changes, but that's because the skill and ability bases for both can and do often change radically- to the point where character builds really DO become unplayable. Thus, being able to respend points/race/class change.

Spirit Forge is kinda jarring. There's a plague killing the elves? Spirit Forge em into hoblings till the disease passes. Panterghasts hunting that innocent dwarf? No problem. Need a sudden mastery of the mystical arts? BAM, you're a super-scholar as the OP put it.

It's optimization in ritual form and it gets around a lot of things that IMHO, "a wizard did it" shouldn't solve. If anything, I think it should have more risks and invite visits from creatures of order and fate that don't appreciate you messing with your destiny.
just cause I have to....Spirit Forge...changes the skills of a character, Race Change...changes the race of a character...

both of which can be used in way that most people find distastful...but there are times that it would fit into the on going story of a character
 

Mike Ventrella

Duke
Owner
Moderator
HQ Staff
(Shrug) I gave my opinion on it. I also pointed out that my opinion was in the minority. I'm used to it. I haven't changed my opinion in the 20 or so years I've been running this game, nor have I forced my opinion on anyone else.

We each have a vision of what the game would be if we had complete control over it. My vision doesn't have characters that switch races and skills.
 

jpariury

Duke
I agree, Avatar was stupid, and what's up with Peter Patrelli always respending his build? ;)

I would find infuriating, otoh, to be the author of any body of work, and have the contents be decided by popular vote. Its one of those things I can definitely sympathize with ya on.
 

markusdark

Knight
jpariury said:
I agree, Avatar was stupid, and what's up with Peter Patrelli always respending his build? ;)

I would find infuriating, otoh, to be the author of any body of work, and have the contents be decided by popular vote. Its one of those things I can definitely sympathize with ya on.
Me three! Mike, go tell all the owners to pound sand and run it the way you want it. :D
 

Mike Ventrella

Duke
Owner
Moderator
HQ Staff
jpariury said:
I would find infuriating, otoh, to be the author of any body of work, and have the contents be decided by popular vote. Its one of those things I can definitely sympathize with ya on.
heh! Well I never claimed to be sole author anyway. NERO, and now the Alliance, was always a group effort.
 

Michiko

Adept
Fearless Leader said:
I write novels based on the world of Fortannis. No reader would accept it if I suddenly had my characters change race or skills. (I can't think of any fantasy fiction where that has happened, can you?)
To answer, though I know its already been addressed by others, the first example that comes to my mind is The Last Unicorn and the conflict it created made for a damn good story.

That being said, I totaly get where you're coming from Mike. My personal feeling is that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Just because some people will "abuse" a system doesn't mean it shouldn't be available for anyone.
 

Mike Ventrella

Duke
Owner
Moderator
HQ Staff
Michiko said:
Fearless Leader said:
I write novels based on the world of Fortannis. No reader would accept it if I suddenly had my characters change race or skills. (I can't think of any fantasy fiction where that has happened, can you?)
To answer, though I know its already been addressed by others, the first example that comes to my mind is The Last Unicorn and the conflict it created made for a damn good story.
I haven't read all the examples given here. Of course there's going to be some story somewhere that does that -- no matter what you say, someone has written it somewhere.

But most of the examples are not of the "Character decides that they want to change their skills and so they do something magical and suddenly they are powerful wizards instead of strong fighters", are they?
 
markusdark said:
go tell all the owners to pound sand and run it the way you want it. :D
That sort of mindset will leave you with less and less owners who look for games that are willing to be flexible and not "control" how they want to run games.

It has been said that Democracy is the worst form of government... except for all the others. ;)
 

jpariury

Duke
Dreamingfurther said:
markusdark said:
jpariury said:
go tell all the owners to pound sand and run it the way you want it. :D
That sort of mindset will leave you with less and less owners who look for games that are willing to be flexible and not "control" how they want to run games?

It has been said that Democracy is the worst form of government... except for all the others. ;)
You screwed up your quote tags. That was not something I said.
 
whops sorry I fixed it now.
 

Tempest

Artisan
Kind of a couple of fixs to the spirit forge scroll itself, possibly making it more palatable for those opposed to its existence, yet making it more challenging to those of more advanced standing.

1) Each 5 levels of a character build adds another failure chance (or a death).
Joey Newguy show's up, plays a Templar a few times, doesn't like it, gets a forge, no problem.
Fighter McFightguy has been around for 15 years, and everybody knows him as the big stick jock, wants to be a mage. Well, it is a LOT harder to get the magic to work right and quite possibly dangerous to do (make it for the caster and the target, see who casts it for ya then!).

2) Have a level of forging. Spend 6 sticks with a certain difficulty, burn the scroll, and you can 'forge' 10 build. 8 sticks 15, and so on.
No rewrite, no overly dramatic shifts in the space time continuum.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Tempest said:
Kind of a couple of fixs to the spirit forge scroll itself, possibly making it more palatable for those opposed to its existence, yet making it more challenging to those of more advanced standing.

1) Each 5 levels of a character build adds another failure chance (or a death).
Joey Newguy show's up, plays a Templar a few times, doesn't like it, gets a forge, no problem.
Fighter McFightguy has been around for 15 years, and everybody knows him as the big stick jock, wants to be a mage. Well, it is a LOT harder to get the magic to work right and quite possibly dangerous to do (make it for the caster and the target, see who casts it for ya then!).

2) Have a level of forging. Spend 6 sticks with a certain difficulty, burn the scroll, and you can 'forge' 10 build. 8 sticks 15, and so on.
No rewrite, no overly dramatic shifts in the space time continuum.

If your against it IG...then deal with it IG and try and find all the scrolls and cats for them and never sell them. Start a rebellion against it. There are plenty of ways to deal with it then just changing the scroll, which to me is taking the easy way out, kind of like not allowing them at all. So much role play opportunity and plot that can go along with it. The elders being mad at you for changing to there race or your former race being mad at you for leaving there race and so on.
 
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