starting equipment

[Robb G]

I would be amazed if we've never lost a player because of this so shouldn't we consider doing something to make the weaponless scholar busier lower levels? Even at 6th level, a friend said that I'd better take a weapon because playing a weaponless scholar at that level is going to be rough.

why would we lose a player? if they don't like being weaponless, they can always go learn a weapon skill... yes if you blow your 7 spells or whatever the first night, you're out of them until Saturday night... so what? 1) scrolls 2) wands 3) role play

again i point out that it is rough in the beginning so that the rewards of later higher levels are greater.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

I see both of your points, however I would like to bring up a third thing to keep in mind.

Yes the power level of the game is quite a bit higher than perhaps it used to be, even 5th or 6th level characters can feel quite useless if they want to be "effective" because well, quite frankly they won't have the skills and abilities to do so.

However, NPC for a year, or just donate stuff to 2 or 3 chapters and wait to play the game for a year while you accrue game blankets and monthly blankets and one can easily come in with at least a 10th level character. Once you get to that point you'll be able to feel at least moderately affective, especially with a strait class. I realize not everyone wants to massively power level, but you don't really even have to work especially hard to get a card up to 10th level.

Playing a 15 build character is practically the least powerful thing you can do in this game, just know what your getting into. From what I hear its gotten easier and easier to level fast from the "old days" so the alternatives are out there.

Also, another great new way to approach this if you want some weapons is with the fluid class. Start as a Templar or Adept with weapon skills and 1 or 2 spells, and just learn all spells, probably only in a level or two you'll be back to scholar build wise but still have those weapon skills when you are very small and want something. Its not a horribly effective style I don't think, but if you want something that might be "cool" for a scholar feel wise, go staff/short sword.

29bp (as a fighter) for: staff, 1h edge, florentine, two weapon, read and write, (read magic or healing arts/first aid) Which is a number of build you could get from just bringing 90 goblin stamps worth of donations to your first ever game and getting back monthly blankets.

 

[Ezri]

Why is this suddenly an issue? We've been giving people single weapons and twelve copper for almost 20 years. We all did it. When did the attitude of being entitled to things just for showing up start?

I don't know anybody who had an issue with this or wouldn't play because we didn't give out enough stuff for a starter. You're a new character. You are not going to have all the toys that experienced characters have. Every game starts like this, I don't care if it's WoW, Monopoly or pretty much any other game. Start at the beginning, play the game, grow and earn/find stuff. It's not that hard.

If starting so low bothers you so much, NPC an event or two, make some packets, get some gobs and EARN more.

 

[Mirificatio]

NPCing is so fun that it's not like you're exactly "missing out" on anything. Ezri's point is exactly why I've been NPCing since halfway through my first event, and it will be I think my 8th event (holy crap, really?!) when I'll get my PC rolling. That will be something like a dozen spells, two assassinates (1 racial), staff and thrown weapons. A much better set of things to do during a logistics period than just swing a staff and throw nine spells the way it worked at my first event. And in the mean-time, if using nifty skills is the goal, just think of all the nifty skills your NPCs get.

 

[jpariury]

Why is this suddenly an issue?

I don't know about "suddenly". The thread's at least a month old.

We've been giving people single weapons and twelve copper for almost 20 years. We all did it. When did the attitude of being entitled to things just for showing up start?

Argument from tradition is never a winning argument. We played for 19 years without wands, yet they've been added to the game.

I think the issue is that people are looking for an IG justification where none exists. Dude spends 11 build on small weapon, one-handed edged and staff, gets three weapons. Dudette spends 15 on weaponmaster, gets one. It's not a balance issue, it's not an "in-game logic" issue. It's just an arbitrary starting point that was created long ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth and babies were found in cabbage patches. No one has presented a Good Reason™, they've just said "Yeah, well, we've always done it that way, so suck it, Blue."

 

[Robb G]

No one has presented a Good Reason™, they've just said "Yeah, well, we've always done it that way, so suck it, Blue."

i have given reasons that have not been refuted by other than "but I want more free stuff™"

 

[Ezri]

That's the point I was really trying to make... much like Robb I don't see a good reason to change it other than people whining that they don't get enough free stuff. Entitlement makes me want to gag.

Wands added a new dimension to the game and bolstered the celestial mage into more of what most of us view as the classic wizard. That was a good reason for change. I see nothing to be gained by altering the starting equipment because no matter what you do, somebody is always going to want more, so where do you stop?

So yeah, IMHO people need to either suck it up, or contribute to the game by donating or NPCing to earn more starting loot.

 

[James Trotta]

If starting so low bothers you so much, NPC an event or two, make some packets, get some gobs and EARN more.

You can say that to me and it's no big deal. I have gobbies in multiple chapters and I know what to expect because I've been playing a while.

But I don't think there's a disclaimer in the rulebook that says if you start off with a 15 build scholar you are going to suck in combat so you'd better NPC for a while. A person might come to play and then realize that s/he can't really do anything in combat.

why would we lose a player? if they don't like being weaponless, they can always go learn a weapon skill... yes if you blow your 7 spells or whatever the first night, you're out of them until Saturday night... so what? 1) scrolls 2) wands 3) role play.

I'm thinking of the player that likes being weaponless but who also likes combat. As for the scrolls and wands, newbies don't get those. They're not going to get them off of their kills since they don't have enough spells to kill anything anyway.

This leaves roleplay. Honestly people use this as an excuse far too often. Oh 6 hours of downtime? You shouldn't be bored - you should be roleplaying. Oh you blew your 7 spells and have 18 hours left till the next logistics? You have no excuse to be bored - you should be roleplaying. Roleplaying is great, but don't some people come to participate in combat?

Why is this suddenly an issue? We've been giving people single weapons and twelve copper for almost 20 years. We all did it. When did the attitude of being entitled to things just for showing up start?

Why is the idea of giving celestial casters a wand suddenly an issue? Wands are new and I just thought about it.

20 years doesn't make it good.

Being entitled to what? A fun time? I just don't think a 15 build celestial scholar can come in game and have fun in combat. I do think they are entitled to some fun combat though - just for showing up (and paying money to play a game). That doesn't mean we have to give them a bazillion scrolls or 20 gold. I'd settle for 1 wand (they choose the element) and a warning that 15 build weaponless scholars suck early but get cooler later. And advice that when they run out of spells they should either sleep or roleplay or scavenge other people's kills or whatever.

Yes we all did it. When I started I was a fighter. And I was going on low level modules in the Brooklyn site. I had friends who were 5th and 9th level to help me out (they helped me build a character so I wouldn't be totally useless). My first weekend I was second level. It had a build cap around 90 something. By my second weekend I was 3rd level I think. I could shoot arrows for 6, swing my short sword for 3, and block with my spear or thrust for 2. It was hard. It was cold. It was no fun. Morganna threw an obliterate that hit someone near me but I had no idea what that meant. I almost quit Nero. If I had been a 15 build weaponless scholar that event I guarantee I would have quit.

When we first started, my buddy was a elven scholar with polearm and read/write. Insane, I tell ya, insane.

[/quote]

Actually, that's probably a lot less insane than than pre reqs and 421.

i have given reasons that have not been refuted by other than "but I want more free stuff™"

As far as I can see nobody said that. I honestly don't know where you got that but since I'm the one advocating for giving newbies a wand I have to assume you're talking about me. Honestly a 2 silver wand means very little to me. I'll be coming into game with plenty. That's my style.


Anyway, I've said my thing. If an owner sees this and cares they can bring it up on their boards. As I said it doesn't really effect me personally so I don't care all that much - probably not enough to keep going on this thread so don't be insulted if you brilliantly refute every point I've made and I don't reply. I'd just like to see all new players have fun and this is something I think is relevant.

 

[jpariury]

i have given reasons that have not been refuted by other than "but I want more free stuff™"

Who said that?

At most, I'm advocating that people be allowed to use their build in ways that are consistent with the character they build.
"Why should you get lots of weapons?!?"
"Because I bought the skill to use lots of weapons..."

 

[Robb G]

i have given reasons that have not been refuted by other than "but I want more free stuff™"

Who said that?

i'm not a line by line quoter, i paraphrase with biased intent

At most, I'm advocating that people be allowed to use their build in ways that are consistent with the character they build.
"Why should you get lots of weapons?!?"
"Because I bought the skill to use lots of weapons..."

thusly, if you buy no weapon skills.. you should be given... 0 weapons. that includes wands in my eyes. of coarse you could fix all of this by forcing players to buy a wand skill... which i also don't support.

that's like saying.. you need a use magic item skill... no newbies get magic items.. gasp, no fair! what if they really want to experience magic items with a 15 build PC and because they are new, and have no magic items starting off, it turns them away from combat, or the magic system all together and they quit...

I can't get behind what Jame's is saying about a 15 build scholar. I've been there, i've lived it. I've played a C Caster for all these years with my class being constantly refrred to as the broken class. and yet, I had fun.. i kept coming back... i used scrolls, people in town gave me things, i did research, i used potions to heal people... downtime? what downtime? sounds like your waiting for the game to come to you... you don't come into game as a weaponless scholar if you're playing the game to be in combat... that's complete power gaming nonsense.

 

[jpariury]

thusly, if you buy no weapon skills.. you should be given... 0 weapons. that includes wands in my eyes. of coarse you could fix all of this by forcing players to buy a wand skill... which i also don't support.

We're probably mixing up discussions, then. My argument is that dudette with Weaponmaster shouldn't be restricted to only one starting weapon. Starting character with Weaponmaster has certainly "earned" more weapons that starting characters with staff, small weapon, and ohe, yet they get shafted for it.

Wands... enh, I'm not sure about. The game played now is not the game I started playing. The rules are significantly different and the expectation of gameplay is significantly different. Maybe it's time to revisit the starting equipment rules to reflect the current game, rather than the old one. (As a side note, I find it highly ironic that the Alliance prides itself in not catering to powermongers, yet, build for build, the rules allow for significantly more powerful characters in Alliance than NERO. Just sayin'.)

That said, you sound like an old man in a rocking chair. "In my day, we had one spell: Stinky! It made the monster wiggle their nose for a moment, and once we cast it, we ran like little bitches, by dadgum, and we LIKED it, 'cuz that's the way it was! And we didn't use no 'popsicle sticks' for formal magic. We SACRIFICED A VIRGIN... I mean, we're larpers, there's plenty to go around."

 

[Dreamingfurther]

lol your posts frequently amuse me JP...

Generally speaking I would say that "starting equipment" rules, while they perhaps would benefit from a re-visitation are almost obsolete if you want them to be. If you do your homework you can start a character easily at 10th level, with a handful of production and coin from goblin stamps, and half a dozen magic items from NPC'ing or otherwise.

The reality of the game is that no one, and I mean no one who wants to really have a good time being effective should roll in a character with 15 build. There are many ways you can have fun independent of build, but that's a separate argument. If you want to have fun with build based skills you need to get on the gobie train, NPC for a while and donate stuff, that's just sort of the way it is now...

Do we want THAT to be different? I don't really hear anyone saying that. And quite frankly I don't think our game could survive if we tried to make that different, because generally speaking from what I have observed the game lives off donation and volunteer work. If we didn't reward people as much as we do for what they do now, I think it would be very possible that there would be less given to the game and all games would suffer.

Just my opinion on the life or death issue at stake here...