[.11] Time to Get a New Life

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Yes. Disease now means no healing, but First Aid works. I meant what I said.
Oh bah. I forgot that Disease was still a thing. My bad.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Disease is going to kill more lowbies on mods then lack of life spells I am betting. It is super punishing to them.
It's definitely gong to be something that needs to be handled carefully, but it's in line with the new paradigm of Necromancy be scary yo! It's another tool in the Plot kit, unless you're talking about PvP, at which point... y'know... Necromancy is supposed to be scary... and powerful... and enticing...
 

Spaz

Newbie
Chicago Staff
For me, having a 7/9 split is no different than most spell casting game which hold a similar split for its spell casters. For Celestial, this concept isn't that different from Storm and Lesser Storm.

It really is a Resource Management equation. If you are in a large, or scary mod and only have 6 Life Spells, but 20 characters. Are you going to use a Life on a 10> character who can't absorb/deflect/resist a lot and can't do a lot of damage... or a 10< character who has those things? Keeping in mind that as an earth caster, if the melee falls, you fall next (assuming the first rule fight club being, "kill the Cleric first, Mage second" isn't being followed) One person who has to rez, is better than everyone who has to rez. An Earth caster who specializes in healing is nothing but mitigating force depletion, balancing out being successful with the least amount of adverse effects suffered and least amount of spells used.

As a new player (new, like Ive played 3 logistics periods now) its super rough to be on the "tough luck kid" side of the coin; but the cold math doesn't lie so I accept the logic of the situation. As a player of a character with only racial resists, and 6normal, or another character who doing 17not normal with a fare amount of resists. The choice of who to rez is really simple, for the betterment of the adventures on the mod; the rez goes to where it will do the most good to benefit everyone; which isn't me.

Additionally, a 7/9 split allows characters who can be happy with a lesser spell, allows them to diversify their spells or character (or just be a lower level scholar who is attempting a straight pyramid build and just isn't there yet), without the 9th level being "required" measurement in order to be included in things. which also allows lower level characters to get more seriously involved sooner, and being involved has a direct impact on how much fun a player has.

I personally love the concept of a 7/9 split of effects and hope it gets the traction it needs to be added to the rules.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I strongly advise anyone who supports this concept to include that in their playtest feedback.
 

Chad Schaffer

Newbie
South Michigan Staff
I personally feel that this is simply a bid to allow earth to be more offensive. That is what Celestial magic is for.

Earth already has many options for offensive casting, too many IMO. I would love to see a great separation of Earth and Celestial, mainly by taking offensive spells (binding mainly) out of Earth, and separating the protective (physical shield goes to Earth, Spell Shield to Celestial for instance).

I know this is not a popular stance, but I would like to change the mode of the conversations I am seeing; Earth casters asking for more when there is already a a serious imbalance in the schools at a base level.

Fundamentally, having more life spells waters the game down and forces plot teams to make up convoluted tactics to create tension that should simply exist due to resource issues. If Earth casters want to be offensive they can cast chaos or become Celestial casters, we shouldn't imbalance the game to fix this.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
If Earth casters want to be offensive they can cast chaos or become Celestial casters, we shouldn't imbalance the game to fix this.
Do you then agree that if people want to use healing potions, they should be required to have Earth slots equal to Effect Level -4?
 

Chad Schaffer

Newbie
South Michigan Staff
Do you then agree that if people want to use healing potions, they should be required to have Earth slots equal to Effect Level -4?
That's a fine parody with scrolls, but we're not talking about that.

Before attempting to balance potions and scrolls why don't we get the same number of spells in each school, the same number of school specific rituals and equivalent high magic abilities.

Crafting is it's own nightmare to balance, and there are perhaps other ways to create parody between them beyond making them, harshly, exactly the same. I don't want Earth and Celestial to be the same. I specifically want them to have equivalent strengths and weaknesses, and be as different as possible.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I feel like you’re specifically avoiding the discussion of balance, which you brought up as the focus.

In the interest of balance, would you equate the requirements of potions to those of scrolls?

Y/N?
 

Chad Schaffer

Newbie
South Michigan Staff
I think you are specifically avoiding the discussion of spell school balance by bringing up crafting.

As things stand: Earth scholars don't need any boosts at all in any way.

If we want to talk about balance, we need to start elsewhere; certainly not with giving more powers to Earth casters.

In the end maybe there will be some kind of skill requirement for potion delivery, maybe not, but we shouldn't be worried about snakes in the garden of the mansion that is Earth magic, when the shack that is Celestial has spiders in the beds.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I think you’re unwilling to really take the conversation of balance as far as it would have to go, so I apologize, but I see no further benefit in engaging you in this circular conversation.
 

Ruki

Artisan
...is he trying to say that Earth is overpowered and Celestial is weak?
 

Ardos

Artisan
South Michigan Staff
No Ruki, hes saying celestial is underpowered and Earth is in a good place. If you really feel differently then I'm not sure you've spent much time as a non caster looking in. I'm not sure how adding more spells to a list bloated with the best spells in the game benefits a game "balancing" more than that previously suggested celestial spell to let those life spells get a "mini renew". Both of you and draven seem to be missing that stickied post about increased moderator activity.
Please keep posts civil and know discussions are are being read and talked about internally by the Owners and ARC.
Let's keep this a civil discussion on how to address spell school balance as opposed to being accusatory about different opinions.
 

Ruki

Artisan
As a celestial caster (adept), celestial has been OP for quite some time now. I think with this packet, things have finally evened out, personally.
 

Seabass

Scholar
South Michigan Staff
Anecdotally, this rings very true to me. I have rarely seen anyone rez for lack of a life spell being available, just because they were being kept in hand for someone 'more important'.



Respectfully, that will never happen. The power gradient is too steep. Your average well kitted out high level character would be a walking town wipe if they decided to go after the mid and low level characters.

People quit rather than put themselves in a PvP situation they can't win, because those with the power have the ability to make their weekend a nightmare (that they paid for the privilege of attending) if they feel like it.
I was catching up in here and this caught my eye. I mean this sincerely when I say I'm sorry if you ever put up with this. This is not standard, common, or frankly acceptable (barring extreme circumstances of course)..., but most importantly it is also not the norm for most chapters that I visit and talk to. I certainly hope this isn't reflective of any given event. You shouldn't have to put up with that unless it is for perfectly IG reasons.

These sorts of issues shouldn't be factored into balance for resources for low level players. There is no balance for that except perhaps to say "stop hitting me in the wallet and good times for no reason".

Apologies for the late quote, that just really bothered me that people would be acting that way.
 

Seabass

Scholar
South Michigan Staff
As a celestial caster (adept), celestial has been OP for quite some time now. I think with this packet, things have finally evened out, personally.
I disagree. Unless you are factoring in golems of which I couldn't agree more. Leaving those out how is Celestial over powered?
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
No Ruki, hes saying celestial is underpowered and Earth is in a good place. If you really feel differently then I'm not sure you've spent much time as a non caster looking in. I'm not sure how adding more spells to a list bloated with the best spells in the game benefits a game "balancing" more than that previously suggested celestial spell to let those life spells get a "mini renew". Both of you and draven seem to be missing that stickied post about increased moderator activity.

Let's keep this a civil discussion on how to address spell school balance as opposed to being accusatory about different opinions.
I’ve spent seven years as a Caster in this system. Am I qualified?
 

Ruki

Artisan
Wands, 100s maybe 1000+ points of free zero build cost damage that earth has had no equivalent to for all this time.
That was my line of thinking! But now that you have to invest in wands, and Earth has an equivalent, all is good in the hood.
 

MondayMcGee

Scholar
San Francisco Staff
Yeah, I think this packet is a really good step towards parity between the schools of magic.

As for the topic at hand, I don’t think that a modification to how Life works would have any significant effect on the balance between Earth and Celestial. I’m not sure if the changes Draven suggested will be needed or not, or if that need will be comparable between different chapters, but that’s a great thing to figure out in play testing.
 
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