[.11] Time to Get a New Life

Seabass

Scholar
South Michigan Staff
Some friends of mine had a thought as we were discussing the need to make Celestial Magic more robust and balanced with Earth. Part of it I felt could contribute to this discussion.

What if, in the spirit of the new meditate rule, Celestial had spells for use with expended skills and meditate. Either a tiered system of levels for lesser, moderate, or greater skill levels (based on power), simply a 9th level spell, or a 1 level cost high magic ability.

The point of this spell would be to allow someone to meditate back (at their personal skill level) one skill, no matter how the skill was expended. Thus celestial 9th level spells/high magic could potentially replenish any skill expended in a day including Life spells.

While something like this couldn’t be written to a scroll it could be spell stored and that could prove to be a very solid spell option (against many other very powerful options at leve 9) for Celestial for any class.

Obviously this is a loose idea someone came up with when just throwing ideas around but I wanted to see what others in this discussion might think about this.
 

Octal

Newbie
I could also see a higher level that sets a person from Dying to Bleed Out midway between this spell and Life.
I like this, but maybe to good. Life might need a buff to get used.

Why use a 9th level spell when a lower level spell and then any low level heal/potion/alchemy will do the trick.

What if, in the spirit of the new meditate rule, Celestial had spells for use with expended skills and meditate. Either a tiered system of levels for lesser, moderate, or greater skill levels (based on power), simply a 9th level spell, or a 1 level cost high magic ability.

The point of this spell would be to allow someone to meditate back (at their personal skill level) one skill, no matter how the skill was expended. Thus celestial 9th level spells/high magic could potentially replenish any skill expended in a day including Life spells.
This could be really useful/fun. If it was high magic I'd have 5+ of them every game for sure.
I do think if you are going to add a mechanic like meditate you should probably add a few spells to effect it (along with the skills they added)
 

Gorphy

Newbie
Yeah, but the idea behind adding the effect is supposed to rectify the pressure on Earth Casters to prepare Life and only Life. Or for low level casters to not be "competent" until they have their capstone ability. Or for character death not to become rampant with the removal of a bunch of healing. None of these are solved by making a Master-Tier potion.

I'm suggesting a change/addition to a lower level spell that lower-levels can cast that resets a death count to 0:01 (not bleed out) and is held there as long as the caster administers First Aid. So even if they are interrupted, there is still 5 minutes to get the downed character a Life spell anyway. All it does is delay character death so that a solution might be found. I think it favors low-level play but doesn't necessarily lose utility at higher level. It's dramatic, low-level and ultimately a stopgap for helping someone not die just because Life spells are in short supply. I could also see a higher level that sets a person from Dying to Bleed Out midway between this spell and Life. Make some sort of progression rather than Life/No Life.

Also, because I'm a Dr. Strange fan, I'd really like the first level to be called "Bargain." Then again, maybe not.

-JT
I like your idea better than mine for many reasons. It is great for lowbies and does not break the game for highbies.

1) More roleplay. Actively holding off Doom sounds way more fun than finding a dead buddy and saying "I can't cast life yet!"
2) More accessible at low levels. The problem is not solved, it is just delayed. Because this bargain transfers power instead of creating a new life source, it can be a lower level spell than the other ideas in this thread.
3) Less utility at high levels. You still need a life with this effect, so skipping straight to it will be preferred at high levels.
I think making Bargain a spell-only alternative to the Cleanse spell would fit thematically and mechanically.
"I bargain you from doom"
Cleanse already cures all other curses, so having an altered version pause the Doom curse effect (for a duration of focus) makes sense. Changing the wording when cast
helps keep
the spell-only Bargain separate from the Cleanse elixir and prevent people from stockpiling postpone-death elixirs/potions.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I don’t think any spell accomplishes the stated goal if it doesn’t get you from Dead to Not Dead.

The issue put forth in the OP is that Life spells will be so relatively rare that they’ll be hoarded by those with access (not everyone, of course, but there will certainly be hoarding).

If the issue is correct (and that’s entirely debatable), then all the “resets death timer” spell will accomplish will

1) Make people really hopeful someone will give in and give a Life.

2) Make people really upset when they’ve spent an hour RPing First Aid and finally have no choice but to let them die.
 

Joseph Smith

Artisan
I think the spell gets you from Dead to Not Dead Yet, which is a step in the right direction. Dunno if you've played a low level healer in Chicago, but a friend of mine and my fiance have, and the feeling is to get a couple of people up from bleed out then wait for Remem and stay out of the important peoples' way because you are a burden that will eventually suck less. I admire the changes to healing in 2.0, but you aren't considered a "real" healer in my experience until you have Life spells. Maybe we can do something about that and not turn the game on its head to do so. This is the solution I like. What's yours? I'll take it if it's better. I've come to Bargain.

-JT
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
What's yours? I'll take it if it's better. I've come to Bargain.

-JT
Mine’s the first post on this thread.

I don’t think my suggestion turns the rules on its head at all; certainly less so than the changes proposed to Signature Spells, Channeling, XP pre-requisites instead of skill pre-requisites, the modification to Storm spells, etc etc.

There’s nothing complex about my proposition. The only real concern people seem to have is that it’ll make Life spells too abundant, and I don’t really think that’s true.

Heck, In your own post, you stated that Healers aren’t considered real Healers until they can Life. My proposition is both simple and rectifies that very issue. :)
 

Gorphy

Newbie
I don’t think any spell accomplishes the stated goal if it doesn’t get you from Dead to Not Dead.

The issue put forth in the OP is that Life spells will be so relatively rare that they’ll be hoarded by those with access (not everyone, of course, but there will certainly be hoarding).

If the issue is correct (and that’s entirely debatable), then all the “resets death timer” spell will accomplish will

1) Make people really hopeful someone will give in and give a Life.

2) Make people really upset when they’ve spent an hour RPing First Aid and finally have no choice but to let them die.
That is a major concern. I had an idea that solves exactly that problem.

Suppose I am Doomed, a healer begins to Bargain for my spirit. A third companion picks up my body (while the healer maintains Focus on the Bargain) and caries me to a Greater Earth Circle. Now suppose anyone invested in that circle could join with the healer for one minute of roleplay to complete the Bargain and actually cross that last crucial step to bring me back from Dead to Not Dead.

(Personally, I thought my idea of "change from Dead to Bleed-out" was overpowered for lowbies, because it solves death in an instant, taking only one more spell incant to exceed the benefit of a Life spell.)
 

Manflesh

Artisan
Throwing another idea out there. What if a certain amount of Channel points equals a Life spell? 50? 100? 150?

I suppose 150 makes the most sense balance-wise considering that it is the equivalent to the total damage output of a level 9 magic storm, but that seems a bit high.

Thoughts?
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
That is a major concern. I had an idea that solves exactly that problem.

Suppose I am Doomed, a healer begins to Bargain for my spirit. A third companion picks up my body (while the healer maintains Focus on the Bargain) and caries me to a Greater Earth Circle. Now suppose anyone invested in that circle could join with the healer for one minute of roleplay to complete the Bargain and actually cross that last crucial step to bring me back from Dead to Not Dead.

(Personally, I thought my idea of "change from Dead to Bleed-out" was overpowered for lowbies, because it solves death in an instant, taking only one more spell incant to exceed the benefit of a Life spell.)
Throwing another idea out there. What if a certain amount of Channel points equals a Life spell? 50? 100? 150?

I suppose 150 makes the most sense balance-wise considering that it is the equivalent to the total damage output of a level 9 magic storm, but that seems a bit high.

Thoughts?
For the first one, I feel like that's way too complicated for the mechanics of a spell.

For the second, then we open up the floor to "How much Channel equals a Prison?"
 

Joseph Smith

Artisan
I don't think it adds that problem at all. There is an expectation that we have to mirror Celestial and Earth magic as much as possible, but we don't treat them the same. We treat Celestial as a DnD-style wizard. She has many paths to choose, and she ultimately decides her playstyle through those choices. Then there's the healer who is a terrible person if they don't fix me. I'm in bleed-out! Sure I did what he told me not to, but darn it, I'm *entitled* to that healing!

My point is that we don't need to give Celestial magic a one-up, or fix it. It doesn't have the "Life" problem.

-JT
 

Joseph Smith

Artisan
That is a major concern. I had an idea that solves exactly that problem.

Suppose I am Doomed, a healer begins to Bargain for my spirit. A third companion picks up my body (while the healer maintains Focus on the Bargain) and caries me to a Greater Earth Circle. Now suppose anyone invested in that circle could join with the healer for one minute of roleplay to complete the Bargain and actually cross that last crucial step to bring me back from Dead to Not Dead.

(Personally, I thought my idea of "change from Dead to Bleed-out" was overpowered for lowbies, because it solves death in an instant, taking only one more spell incant to exceed the benefit of a Life spell.)
I like that solution, but only if the healer has no Life spells currently in memory. I don't want to see that solution abused for cheap Life spells after a character has crossed that threshold. So Life becomes the "get him up right now" power and Bargain becomes the "at least he won't die, but he's out for now" power that has additional problems with transportation, protection, and getting a Marshal to witness the PC's near-death experience. I like this list of weaknesses enough to give it a low rating as a spell. Maybe 4th? Well within range for a new character if they went all out?

-JT
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
l
My point is that we don't need to give Celestial magic a one-up, or fix it. It doesn't have the "Life" problem.

-JT
The reason Wands were removed is because in Alliance, there are two primary caster “archetypes.” The Celestial Scholar and the Earth Scholar. While they do have some major differences, their resources are designed to be roughly parallel.

That’s why it’s a good thing free Wands are gone.

Channel for E and Channel for C should not have incredibly different mechanics, because it breaks that balance that just got improved.
 

Joseph Smith

Artisan
The reason Wands were removed is because in Alliance, there are two primary caster “archetypes.” The Celestial Scholar and the Earth Scholar. While they do have some major differences, their resources are designed to be roughly parallel.

That’s why it’s a good thing free Wands are gone.

Channel for E and Channel for C should not have incredibly different mechanics, because it breaks that balance that just got improved.
I understand they are designed to be parallel. The social expectations are not parallel is my point. If you had to have say, Healing Arts to use a potion, they'd be more parallel. My example was to show how the social expectation ruins the parallel, and why it isn't important to mirror power in both when that expectation is present.

-JT
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I understand they are designed to be parallel. The social expectations are not parallel is my point. If you had to have say, Healing Arts to use a potion, they'd be more parallel. My example was to show how the social expectation ruins the parallel, and why it isn't important to mirror power in both when that expectation is present.

-JT
Oh man. I’ve made so many posts on the social differences between C casters and E casters and the resource differences (Wands and exclusive access to scrolls vs zero Wands and no exclusive access to potions), plus the social pressure to memorize spells to make other people have a better game that you’re preaching to the choir, here.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
So, fair warning, I'm a bit sick and thus may be making crazy talk suggestions/compromises.

Two spells.

9: Life - we know it, we love it. When you're dead, it makes you not-dead and puts you at 1 body. The inverse is Corrupt. This turns a living thing into an intelligent greater undead. Life turns a Greater Undead with a spirit into a living person at 1 body.

Proposed spell.

7: Vitality (if someone has a better name, I'm all ears) - I call upon the earth to grant you Vitality - The new inverse of Create Undead. Makes you not dead, at 0 body, and immune to earth for 1 minute. At which point you stand up from being Unconscious thanks to the new timer on that. To undead it is treated exactly like Destroy Undead currently is. First Aid, which is not Earth, can still be used as normal if they get hit back down to -1.

Vitality may be crafted as a potion. Life cannot.

With Vitality, you can keep someone from dying, but they're still out of the fight for a full minute, which is not an insignificant amount of time in Alliance combat in my experience. In addition, they're extra vulnerable for that minute. Any damage sustained would need to be counteracted by someone taking care of them with First Aid, meaning that even the lowest level of healers on the biggest of town fights can have an impact with the skill when the Steve the Lich starts tossing Doom around like it's candy, and Steve's nemesis Good McGood could only get a Vitality instead of a life. Now you're keeping McGood from dying with good old fashioned meatball surgery for a minute until the body can withstand another jolt of healing.
 

Gorphy

Newbie
I like the use of the First Aid timer. The immune to earth timer seems to be the only complex thing left. (Edit: Thanks Draven, for reminding me that we want this as simple as possible.)

Bargain/Revive/Vitality: A Spell that allows one immediate* attempt at First Aid on a dead target. If that attempt is interrupted the person is still dead. If First Aid is successful then the person is not dead, at 0 body, and can be healed as normal for successful First Aid.

The only thing this spell would do would allow for another game mechanic, First Aid, to happen where it normally could not and save the transition from Dead to Not Dead until the end.

*First Aid must begin when the spell is cast but does not have to be done by the caster.
 
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MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Could edit it to be "under a Disease effect for one minute". It's functionally the same, better even because if someone wants to use a purify/cure disease I don't see a problem with it.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Could edit it to be "under a Disease effect for one minute". It's functionally the same, better even because if someone wants to use a purify/cure disease I don't see a problem with it.
Slow, Disease got replaced.
 

Eldor

Artisan
I am personally looking forward to less life spells, as I prefer a more brutal game.

That being said, for the sake of lower level players who are likely to suffer the most, I like the Vitality spell being the opposite of Create Undead (Besides Destroy Undead rarely drops anything these days), with the slow effect, so even if you get healed from 0, you have to walk off the field unless purified. (This is no life spell after all)
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
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