v0.10 ...if we did v1.4 instead

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
I'm a big fan of bindomancy and curses. Destruction + healing can be pretty crazy against undead.
Unfortunately I’m not a huge fan of pigeonholing Earth Casters’ damage so as to only be viable against Undead. Especially in v2 where they are the only sustainable source of healing. And sadly the vast majority of things in many of the chapters I have played at can rip from most Binding.
 

Melimir

Newbie
Asheville Staff
Unfortunately I’m not a huge fan of pigeonholing Earth Casters’ damage so as to only be viable against Undead. Especially in v2 where they are the only sustainable source of healing. And sadly the vast majority of things in many of the chapters I have played at can rip from most Binding.
Sure, but isn't that what weapon skills are for? And I am saying this as a low level scholar.
What I am saying is, if you want to be able to have a reliable source of damage against everything, pick up a sword or staff. If you want to do it from afar and throw packets so you don't get hit back, grab a bow. Weapons will work against near everything. The only problem is when plot throws in thresholds, but hey that's what I've found vorpals to be for.

Edit: I am all for earth casters to get a wand equivalent. But why does it need to be another source of healing or damage?
 
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Muir

Fighter
I'd say that's basically the definition of an earth templar.
Yeah, but that means that we're expecting earth scholars who want to be something other than passive backpacks to have to not play Scholars. If that's the design intent, so bet it, but I'm not really comfortable with pidgeonholing them into a single style of play from the get-go.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Edit: I am all for earth casters to get a wand equivalent. But why does it need to be another source of healing or damage?
I did say that I’m cool with adding Life and Protective options to Relics, shortening the activation to 10 seconds, which would allow Earth Casters to lean a bit more on their spell mems for debuff/crowd control support (or hyperspecializing into more healing/status removal/protectives).
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
Sure, but isn't that what weapon skills are for? And I am saying this as a low level scholar.
What I am saying is, if you want to be able to have a reliable source of damage against everything, pick up a sword or staff. If you want to do it from afar and throw packets so you don't get hit back, grab a bow. Weapons will work against near everything. The only problem is when plot throws in thresholds, but hey that's what I've found vorpals to be for.

Edit: I am all for earth casters to get a wand equivalent. But why does it need to be another source of healing or damage?
Unfortunately base weapon skills on their own are a far cry from meaningful damage output. Having run playtests with the new monster cards, anything with an ACE over 10 or 12, and that unmodified damage is just a drop in the bucket.

Scholars current class kit is also not built in such a way so as to be able to reliably implement non-ranged weapon skills. With the lowest armor and body values of any class, the frontline is not an ideal place for them to operate from. While ranged weapons may allow them to contribute from less hostile territory, relegating then to spending money in order to meaningfully contribute in an offensive capacity against anything that’s not Undead seems particularly unfair. Especially in the v0.10e environment in which those unused Vorpals go away at the end of an event.

In my opinion, we as an organization directly benefit from allowing our members more flexibility with their characters’ core trees so as to open up additional opportunities for them to contribute in new and different ways.
 

DiscOH

Artisan
They did this exact with with Celestial though, just change "healing" to "damage".
Damage isn't an excotic resource. Every class has access to damage.

Cool. Can Earth Casters have cheap, unlimited damage, then?
Earth casters should have damage sources as viable as other class's healing sources. I think they probably don't right now, but chaos wands sound heavy handed.

(As a celestial caster, I'd also support just removing wands. Damage sources in alliance shouldn't grow along 2 axis, and sustainable damage shouldn't bypass blocking)


Scholars current class kit is also not built in such a way so as to be able to reliably implement non-ranged weapon skills. With the lowest armor and body values of any class, the frontline is not an ideal place for them to operate from. While ranged weapons may allow them to contribute from less hostile territory, relegating then to spending money in order to meaningfully contribute in an offensive capacity against anything that’s not Undead seems particularly unfair. Especially in the v0.10e environment in which those unused Vorpals go away at the end of an event.
I don't think pure caster trees should ever be in melee, but its pretty trivial to dump ~15 exp into wearing armor if you wanted to do skirmishes. I would love it if high magic opened up the ability to contribute at all in melee (especially with the removal of reaver / damage aura) and I think you'd see a lot more interesting gameplay decisions from casters than backpack or CC-slave.
 

Mulgrum

Newbie
Gives the Fighters reasons to get those skills and Scholars all-day damage that they can use without having to use packets.
No it doesn't. Why would a fighter waste build and daily resources to protect a fragile scholar swinging for twenty percent of their damage and probably just hitting a threshold?

One could argue "But low level players have more packets!" True, but only Celestial Scholar new players, and well, if that were ACTUALLY a concern, Earth would have been given a Wand-like ability at the same time Celestial was given it.
Firstly, anything that gives low level scholars more to do is a good thing. Who really wants to show up to an event where you get to do twenty things every twelve hours and a good number of them will be resisted or ignored? I know it's hard for higher level players who've been at this for years or those who just threw money at other chapters to buy power to remember what it's like to be new, but it's no picnic. If we're looking at these rules as a business decision we need to accept that new players are your lifeblood. You have to have new players come in and feel like this is something worth dropping 500 bucks a year in attendance fees for let alone costuming and all the other Larp incidentals.
Secondly, I'm not sure what the thought process behind wands was all those years ago, but it was a massive oversight to give half the players of a class something and tell the others "Nothing for you and be happy with it." It may not have been a concern a decade or whenever ago, but as someone from Seattle pointed out today there are a lot of new players, younger players with new expectations. Alliance can grow to meet these new customers or they can shun them and someone else will pick them up.
 

MondayMcGee

Scholar
San Francisco Staff
Firstly, anything that gives low level scholars more to do is a good thing. Who really wants to show up to an event where you get to do twenty things every twelve hours and a good number of them will be resisted or ignored?
This was precisely my experience as a new player. Started about two years ago, as an Earth Scholar. Having so little to do was quite miserable, and if I didn’t have a group of friends that were already playing and able to support me with potions and other items, I doubt I’d have returned. As it was, I switched to Adept so I’d actually still have something to do once my spells were gone.
 

Tantarus

Squire
Earth wands would be a big boon to the game. It helps new players giving them more packets to use in a day. Perhaps even helping alliance retain them as players.

It lessens the burden on older players spell trees and lets them customize more. As well as giving them more things to do every day.

Most importantly puts earth casters on par with celestial. Which is long past due.
 

Melimir

Newbie
Asheville Staff
The F you say! It's no picnic? Please, tell me more about the low-level plight and how you see yourself standing up for the Little Guy™.

I'm not going to apologize for having played the game for 15+ years, nor am I going to apologize for having some extra money to donate to other chapters and get a very meager amount of Build in return.
Nor should you. The only time I have seen this be a problem and seriously make players (OOG) angry is when there is a tournament in a low APL chapter, and a high level character shows up and sweeps it entirely taking all the rewards. Is it your right to be there and play? Of course. Now is it a good idea that the high level scholar enters the martial tournament or archery shootout and wins it just because of their 12 dodge items and other activatables? Probably not, but that is a more an OOG decision for the player to make. And I don't think this is something that is plot's responsibility to mediate, players should bear a certain level of responsibility in making sure everyone enjoys the game.

Frankly, I think new player retention is low in the game because of the rampant Cronyism, or the perception of such. If plot does nothing to curb the perception that only 1 or 2 groups of players are not only getting all of the loot, but getting all of the story and everyone else is just there to spectate and witness their greatness, then new players are not going to stick around. It is the responsibility of Plot teams to engage new players and give them something to do and fight against that is their level, rather than only catering to high level players who apparently can't keep on their own side of the field and have to ruin everyone else's fun....

New/different rules aren't going to change these facts. Plot especially, but also current players, need to engage with new players and allow them their fun. That is the biggest reason new players leave, not overly-complicated rules.
I couldn't agree more. If I didn't join the game with my own group of friends and came in alone, I doubt I would have stuck around.
 
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Alavatar

Baron
@Alavatar Love the list.

You left of the Warrior's incantation though. Was that on purpose? I actually like it more then Memory strike because then only casters can use it and drain from there memorys rather then passing there build into a weapon that someone else can use.
@Alavatar Memory strike is like a spellstore were as Warriors incantation lets you do it on the fly out of memory. They are pretty functionally different. The latter is something I have wanted as a templar for over a decade. Always thought it should be high magic for hybrids.
Added for completeness.

Only thing I really disagree with is Auras, why not leave them as always on? the 10 minute thing feels like another unneeded thing to track and overly punishing to people that need them in melee. Why not have them always on, but Limit of 1 Aura per weapon. So you have to make the hard choice, do you want to swing magic, or maybe an elemental that does double to something.
@MaxIrons That seems fine, even better trade off with not being able to swing normal/silver. Less tracking 10 mins is always better imo, cause lets face it, we are guessing most the time.
I simplified it to cutting. Cut the damage from DA, cut the Aura and lower the damage on Monster Slayer / Race Reaver. Leave Elemental/Earth/Chaos Aura alone. Makes it simpler for a 1.4 (or 2.0 lite).
 

Graham Wolsey

Scholar
Denver Staff
Marshal
I really like your list except for two points.

1. The removal of Cloak is the source of a lot of the problems with Fighters. If this change goes live there needs to be an alternative to keep Fighters from being neutrallized.

2. Master Construct is significantly more unbalancing from a build gain perspective than either Monster Slayer or Damage Aura. It really needs to be removed if most if the other ritual changes go live.
 

Alavatar

Baron
I really like your list except for two points.

1. The removal of Cloak is the source of a lot of the problems with Fighters. If this change goes live there needs to be an alternative to keep Fighters from being neutrallized.
See 4.11.
"Add the skill Resolute, except allow it to negate a non-damaging effect OR reduce you to 1 Body Point if a damaging effect (thanks Tevas)"

2. Master Construct is significantly more unbalancing from a build gain perspective than either Monster Slayer or Damage Aura. It really needs to be removed if most if the other ritual changes go live.
Removing Spirit Store (High Magic and Ritual) accomplishes the same thing. Then Master Construct is effectively a "create your own pet" that is less powerful than most things created by the Construct ritual (like Mercury Golem).
 

Tantarus

Squire
1. The removal of Cloak is the source of a lot of the problems with Fighters. If this change goes live there needs to be an alternative to keep Fighters from being neutrallized.
I don't agree with this. Taking cloaks away from fighters I think is indeed a big balancing feature of the new rules, and brings down there power level. They can still use spell parry/stalwart shield. (Not a fan of the new mediate restriction or spell parry for everyone, I think it was a good ritual/trade off for people with parries. Also encourages team work with people giving them protectives, mixed with mettle they should be able to survive while not being a totally a solo machine.

Also I am not a fan of unlocking cloaks/banes for casters. That seems pretty unbalanced to me.
 

Graham Wolsey

Scholar
Denver Staff
Marshal
I missed your resolute change. That's a great suggestion!

As far as point 2 goes I suspect we might just disagree. Locally we had a player that just used a Construct scroll. This scroll made a golem (pet) that was immune to whole categories of effects that trivialized whole field fights by itself and required plot to build around a single character at the expense of the rest of the game.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Also I am not a fan of unlocking cloaks/banes for casters. That seems pretty unbalanced to me.
I disagree. I think the issue is more "Unlimited Cloaks at 1 HM per purchase." That's certainly an issue; I'd raise Cloak to 2 HM (6 build for a single-use per event ability seems fair). Sure, you could have a caster with a whole buncha High Magic memorize a ton of Cloaks, but that's a whole lotta build they're not directing towards something more generally applicable.

I also suspect that there's going to be waaaaaaay less Formal Levels in the game, under the current proposed rules.
 

Alavatar

Baron
As far as point 2 goes I suspect we might just disagree. Locally we had a player that just used a Construct scroll. This scroll made a golem (pet) that was immune to whole categories of effects that trivialized whole field fights by itself and required block to build around a single character at the expense of the rest of the game.
I am confused. Did someone Spirit Store into the Construct? Only Master Construct allows you to create a creature that may Spirit Stored into ... unless there was a wonky Plot effect (True Empowered Construct, maybe, that allowed the Construct to be Spirit Store into?)?

The Constructs (Master or Normal) are potent, but they are at least manageable when they don't have a PC's card stacking on top of it. Additionally, the owner of the Construct has to find an NPC to play the part. It is also very similar to a Summon Elemental / Extra Planar Creature / etc. (in fact, some of those Summon's can get you a creature that has Greater Fey Curse, like the Satyr King, which is arguably more powerful).
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
In theory, you could build a 60 point Master Construct with a lot of immunities....but that Construct is going to be fragile as all get out.

And they can't be immune to Eldritch Force (I don't think). Auto-reflect can be annoying, but a single Reflect Magic back and you can Subjugate them easily.
 
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