[.11] Weapon/Armor Duration (split from Packet Color Thread)

I thought Expanded/Enhanced Quiver was in 2.0, and at its highest difficulty it granted an unlimited-capacity quiver? (Name might not be accurate, but I remember one like this being given out as treasure.)
 

Shades

Newbie
I thought Expanded/Enhanced Quiver was in 2.0, and at its highest difficulty it granted an unlimited-capacity quiver? (Name might not be accurate, but I remember one like this being given out as treasure.)
It lets you hold unlimited arrows. You still need tags for them and have to track them.
 

Cedric

Rogue
Marshal
Tracking arrows is such a bad holdover from old 90s LARPs. It should really go away imo. No one likes it. It isn't a fun mechanic.
 

Krystina F

Artisan
Tracking arrows is such a bad holdover from old 90s LARPs. It should really go away imo. No one likes it. It isn't a fun mechanic.
Well, an arrow is a limited resource like a spell or a potion. It has a limit. It also provides something for non-com players or players that want to make coin to do. We aren't a video game with unlimited quivers (yes I know there's a 2.0 rit for storage of it, and I used it wooo!) but if we start just saying we have a free for all on arrows, then what about that alchemist that suddenly gets pouty because they can make something but can't get unlimited of it. They have to keep track of their globes and gasses and all that, just like I have to keep track of all my spells and wand charges (or channeling abilities in 2.0).

I personally like the "oh crap" moments in battle of whether or not we can come together as a community to pull off a fight with our resources, rather than one player being a power gamer being all yeah look at me with my infinite arrows. I like that my chapter can pull in players from the fringes that don't normally feel involved by getting them to bust out old stocks of blacksmithing or potions or whatever (also new mid game crafting like a boss in 2.0).

I like that running out of arrows means I could rez. I like running out resources. It makes it more of a challenge. But that's just me.
 

Tantarus

Squire
It also provides something for non-com players or players that want to make coin to do.
So why do the archers have to sacrifice to give someone else something to do? Their enjoyment is equally valid. And this is a huge frustration of many archers and has been for decades.

This is especially annoying and frustrating mechanic at low levels. It would be a great boon to starting players to remove.
 

Shades

Newbie
Well, an arrow is a limited resource like a spell or a potion. It has a limit. It also provides something for non-com players or players that want to make coin to do. We aren't a video game with unlimited quivers (yes I know there's a 2.0 rit for storage of it, and I used it wooo!) but if we start just saying we have a free for all on arrows, then what about that alchemist that suddenly gets pouty because they can make something but can't get unlimited of it. They have to keep track of their globes and gasses and all that, just like I have to keep track of all my spells and wand charges (or channeling abilities in 2.0).

I personally like the "oh crap" moments in battle of whether or not we can come together as a community to pull off a fight with our resources, rather than one player being a power gamer being all yeah look at me with my infinite arrows. I like that my chapter can pull in players from the fringes that don't normally feel involved by getting them to bust out old stocks of blacksmithing or potions or whatever (also new mid game crafting like a boss in 2.0).

I like that running out of arrows means I could rez. I like running out resources. It makes it more of a challenge. But that's just me.
Because bows are much more in line with other weapons than they are with spells or consumables. Which makes the silver arrow thing another weird holdover. Sure in real life you have to track arrow usage, but weapons/armor/shields degrade as well, and no one wants degrading armor to come back.
I could be a level 40 character with only the ability to use a bow, but be unable to generate my own arrows. You can't be a level 40 alchemist without the ability to generate your own globes.

I like that running out of arrows means I could rez. I like running out resources. It makes it more of a challenge. But that's just me.
That sounds awful to me. The fact that I can be unable to use my bow because no one in our chapter is a blacksmith is a very weird thing to me. Or heck, you step on a trap and now have no arrows and have to sit out the rest of the fight. Although I have run out of packets mid fight before, so they are not exactly unlimited.

Oregon is starting a campaign for brand new characters, and the fact that you can run out of arrows is something that would keep me from playing an archer.
 

Ken

Artisan
Alliance Logistics
One way to go about it would be to make "basic" arrows free and unlimited while still allowing "better" arrows (like ones with iron heads that do +1 damage, say) to be a consumables made by blacksmiths.
 

Shades

Newbie
One way to go about it would be to make "basic" arrows free and unlimited while still allowing "better" arrows (like ones with iron heads that do +1 damage, say) to be a consumables made by blacksmiths.
Although in line with the rest of the changes. I would like it to be something that lasted for 5 days. For instance, you could get an unlimited quiver of +1 arrows for some amount of production.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Arrows give Blacksmiths a regular source of production use. I do not see that changing.

While I do agree that tracking arrow expenditure is a drag, it’s a necessary drag for the time being.

This isn’t an invitation to discussing other ways to make Blacksmithing useful. That’s a more complicated discussion that is probably better for 2.1.

Edit: Also, to add...Archery is definitely more valuable in 2.0 than in 1.3. And heavy crossbow Slays are gonna be a thing. Oh man.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Why is it necessary? What happens if we remove it?
Then Blacksmithing becomes only slightly more valuable than 1.3 Trapmaking.
 

Shades

Newbie
Then Blacksmithing becomes only slightly more valuable than 1.3 Trapmaking.
Then we could fold trap-making into blacksmithing and alchemy. That would actually make more sense to me as it makes one production skill for each base class.

Fighters: Smithing/ (Trap Globes although in this case they should probably be called bombs or something similar)
Rogues: Alchemy/Traps
C Casters: Scrolls
E Casters: Potions

This also gives each of the productions an offensive means too (if you count potion cache).
 

Inaryn

Knight
So, not-so-spoiler alert... Blacksmithing is totally a focus of the crafting committee. If you have thoughts or ideas, you can feel free to dm them to me. I'm happy to crowd source ideas.

But, since it's the only reliable way for blacksmiths to spend their production at the moment, I definitely can't justify proposing getting rid of arrow tracking.
 
I don't want to derail this by going into my thoughts on Blacksmithing, but it was brought to my attention. s the only Master Blacksmith in Denver's chapter, I can speak to a % of arrows/bolts that I make. Outside of silvering weapons, I make almost nothing but arrows/bolts. I'd say optimistically 60% arrows/bolts, 25% silvering, 15% other, although in reality it's probably more arrows/bolts. That's if I use all my production. Sometimes I just make arrows and merchant them for the small amount of extra coin I make from the discount. Strengthening is ridiculously expensive, so it is very rare that anyone is willing to pay even the base cost of that, let alone if I want to make any profit, and weapon/armor drops are so consistent in our chapter that I almost never need to make anyone a replacement weapon. Blacksmithing has arguably one of the best plateau skills, but the crafting itself is the worst craft skill in the game in my opinion. (I play a fighter BTW, not a straight Artisan, although the build cost isn't any different for the two classes.)

My barony has roughly 3 plat in just arrows, not counting bolts, that are probably 85% arrows that I made over the years, and I have not once batched anything. (We don't have as many active archers now, but had more in the past.)

It may be worth noting that our chapter has also traditionally had expiration dates on weapons (but not arrows/bolts), to try and make blacksmiths at least a little more relevant.

If you think arrows/bolts aren't a staple of any blacksmiths production however, I'd say you were wrong. As pretty much the only consumable we can produce, they are the only thing ever in demand (mileage may vary based on loot drops), and as a Master Smith, it kind of sucks pumping out a ton of arrows, that really only take 1 rank to produce a small amount of.
 

Tantarus

Squire
Hrm, good to know. That said I still believe removing ammo is a net gain of enjoyment and simplicity for the game. But clearly Blacksmithing needs some love at the same time to make it a viable option.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Blacksmiths shouldn’t make arrows/bolts. They should make quivers/boltcases (?).

A quiver tag gets you enough arrows/bolts to last one encounter.

A quiver rep lets you hold one quiver tag per 64 cubic inches of volume.

It maintains the recurring production sink for blacksmiths and eliminates the need to count arrows.

Cost it at 20-30pp and I think you’re in the right area.
 

Accleates

Newbie
Oregon Staff
I personally really enjoy the economy of arrows. Once again this is a personal opinion as it is something that creates a fun economy in Oregon. I buy around 10-15 quivers per game so that I can give them out to the new adventurers. The blacksmith gets paid, the archers get arrows and I get to distribute something that is really helpful to a specific group.
 
Blacksmiths shouldn’t make arrows/bolts. They should make quivers/boltcases (?).

A quiver tag gets you enough arrows/bolts to last one encounter.

A quiver rep lets you hold one quiver tag per 64 cubic inches of volume.

It maintains the recurring production sink for blacksmiths and eliminates the need to count arrows.

Cost it at 20-30pp and I think you’re in the right area.
Increasing the cost of arrows/bolts is a bad idea in my opinion. For those players who do only take 1 rank of blacksmithing, they can make 10 arrows/day without batching as it stands, which may not be much, but it's something. Increasing the cost to 20-30 means that you have to have 4-6 ranks to bother making arrows at all without a workshop.

I also feel that it means that those who have archery as the backup for healing/other support abilities get screwed in cost if a quiver lasts an entire encounter. Say I throw 40 arrows in an encounter, and John Doe is a higher level and hits much harder and goes on the high value target team, and throws 140 arrows. What you are suggesting would cost the same amount for both characters, and the newer/support character ends up paying a much higher cost/arrow, which is bad if the intent is to keep arrow tracking in the game at all.
 
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