[.11] Weapon/Armor Duration (split from Packet Color Thread)

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Here are the problems as I see them currently in regards to Alliance economy:

1. Constant inflation: Treasure policy for coin/production is level based, not player number based. As levels go up, so does the amount of income. The ability to buy additional coin with build via craftsman is lumped in here.

2. All income is "surplus" in that there are no upkeep costs in the game. (*note I do not think this should change!)

3. Magic items are:
3a. Disconnected from the rest of treasure policy by way of scrolls/components/catalysts generated in ways different than coin/production.
3b. Leave the game in very different ways than the rest of the economy. (Expiration for most, death for some others. Only 1/shots leave the same as production items.)
3c. Cannot be removed from play the same way as other production items.

4. Goblin Stamp bloat is a problem. Goblin Stamps are a mixed economy with fixed values for some things they can do, and open values for other things which vary chapter by chapter. In addition, the cost of obtaining these GS is entirely at the discretion of the individual chapter. What I mean by this, is that blanketing an event is fixed at 30 GS, and GS are costed at a 1 GS:1 CP value, but a chapter could (theoretically) try to pull real cash in by getting into a bidding war, offering 100 GS per USD if they so chose. With the various GS purchase lists that exist in certain chapters, this can cause disparity and tank the economy by exacerbating the inflation problem from point 1. Then there are the various LCO ritual purchases.

5. Coin is a stand in for "stored" power in the game. Either representing future magic items, or production. It can be traded in for RP items, but this is essentially trading power for story.

I don't have a lot of answers to these issues, because they're big, complex and interwoven with the fact that it would be very painful to change things drastically.
 

Shades

Newbie
I have never once seen someone not be able to play because of Shatter. People loan out extra weapons, which can be hectic and appropriately chaotic when you’re trying to toss your buddy a short sword while trying not to get mauled to death.

I have definitely seen people be unable to play because of Drain/Paralysis/Sleep/Wither.

So, if we want to ensure 100% “Can Engage All The Time,” then we need to stop pretending the problem is Shatter, cuz it sure as heck ain’t.
I personally have been unable to play because of a shatter. Back when I used a 2-handed silver sword, since most people don't have spares of those even in their cabins. I seem to recall that I was out of that fight and had to spend hours asking everyone to look through their stuff for one that they were willing to sell me. This was back when there were a lot more immune to normal things running around.

Also, shatter is an issue in my opinion, because if you are using a weird (non sword) non rendered weapon, then shatter can take you entirely out of the big fight. Heck, I dropped my magic item rep at the last playtest, and there were only 1 or 2 other blunt weapons on the field. Fortunately I had a bow, and someone loaned me one, but that doesn't negate the issue.
 
Shatter is definitely an issue. Every plot team I have been on has been hesitant to use it because it does only hurt lower level characters the most. High level characters only see it as inconvenient.
I would prefer to see it changed to a 1 minute counter as someone else pointed out.
This has been the same issue with Destroy Magic. It seems to only hurt lower level characters because higher level characters have more get out of jail skills.

Long and short of it. Blacksmithing (and all the other crafting schools) needs to be revamped so that there is less cash sinks like arrows/bolts & alchemy globes and more synergy of crafting schools to make improved items.
 
10 minute effects take you out of the game for, at most, 10 minutes. Permanent effects potentially take you out permanently.

I also already mentioned a chapter where new characters can't be certain they will receive charity (someone else mentioned it, too). My home chapter: HQ. I've lived through being weaponless for multiple games because nobody just handed off swords and another player mentioned a similar story above.

-MS
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
10 minute effects take you out of the game for, at most, 10 minutes. Permanent effects potentially take you out permanently.

I also already mentioned a chapter where new characters can't be certain they will receive charity (someone else mentioned it, too). My home chapter: HQ. I've lived through being weaponless for multiple games because nobody just handed off swords and another player mentioned a similar story above.

-MS
Shatter only takes you out as long as it takes someone else to provide you a replacement weapon, if one is feasibly available.

If there isn’t one available because of a low economy, Plot shouldn’t be throwing them, and that’s on them. That’s no different than using other Plot abilities that PCs aren’t geared to handle, however, so I reject the argument that this is an issue with Shatter and not with the decisions of your Plot team.

If there is one available and your community isn’t looking out for your best interests, then that’s either because your community is an unfriendly one and should likely rethink their priorities, or it’s because you’ve done something to put yourself at odds with people, and have only yourself to blame.

Or it’s because you’d rather blame Shatter than actually be part of the social aspect of Alliance, I guess. I don’t often say that one is playing the game wrong (because I believe people should play how they want to play), but the game is clearly written for communities to work together and rely on each other.

I’ve never been to HQ, so for all I know, it’s a totally toxic environment for people helping each other out. If so, you have my condolences and my suggestion that you show your opinion with your money.

It’s true that there are times when a character has a need for a rarer weapon, such as when @Shades pointed out his examples involving a 2H weapon (which is super uncommon in this area, it’s true) or a blunt weapon (also uncommon). In the first example, I don’t know all the details such as whether he could have invested in replacement weapons or not, but in the second example....dude lost it himself and that’s his own fault.
 
Since you seem so supportive of item removal, I can't understand why you aren't fully behind my suggestion that core items can't be permanently removed, while luxury items (like magic items) can be.

Sure, that would move the majority of the suffering to long term players, but you have argued long and hard that they freely give to new players, anyway, so they were already shouldering a major part of that burden.

It could also help really boost the economy. Generic weapon and armor prices really don't meaningfully impact the overall economy compared to the ridiculous amount of treasure that goes out in a weekend (they just meaningfully impact new players that haven't gotten a meaningful share of that treasure yet). However, if blacksmith production items existed that protected or repaired magic items were considerably more expensive, suddenly you could have a real economic effect. The same thing would be true if blacksmiths could create high cost, short term combat boosting items.

Every voice I have seen arguing for item removal (shatter effects, durations, etc.) seems confident that item removal is enjoyable, good for the economy of the game, and doesn't harm new players unreasonably, because older players will take up the burden. So, here is my suggestion that literally removes all harm from new players and increases the economic effect.

I have to wonder whether the older players will still claim item removal is fun now that they are the ones primarily dealing with the consequences.

-MS

P.S. - Core items are defined as basic production items necessary to function (armor, weapons, spellbooks, recipe books), not consumables. While I am not making a hard rules proposal here, immunity to permanent removal would involve some surefire means of getting new copies of lost/stolen items after some short amount of time (10 minutes out of game to "visit a blacksmith" for example) or something similar to refitting shattered items. Core equipment would be defined by the skills of the character.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
You are free to propose whatever you’d like, but we’re clearly likely to disagree on it. :)
 

Muir

Fighter
Shatter only takes you out as long as it takes someone else to provide you a replacement weapon, if one is feasibly available.

If there isn’t one available because of a low economy, Plot shouldn’t be throwing them, and that’s on them. That’s no different than using other Plot abilities that PCs aren’t geared to handle, however, so I reject the argument that this is an issue with Shatter and not with the decisions of your Plot team.

If there is one available and your community isn’t looking out for your best interests, then that’s either because your community is an unfriendly one and should likely rethink their priorities, or it’s because you’ve done something to put yourself at odds with people, and have only yourself to blame.

Or it’s because you’d rather blame Shatter than actually be part of the social aspect of Alliance, I guess. I don’t often say that one is playing the game wrong (because I believe people should play how they want to play), but the game is clearly written for communities to work together and rely on each other.

I’ve never been to HQ, so for all I know, it’s a totally toxic environment for people helping each other out. If so, you have my condolences and my suggestion that you show your opinion with your money.

It’s true that there are times when a character has a need for a rarer weapon, such as when @Shades pointed out his examples involving a 2H weapon (which is super uncommon in this area, it’s true) or a blunt weapon (also uncommon). In the first example, I don’t know all the details such as whether he could have invested in replacement weapons or not, but in the second example....dude lost it himself and that’s his own fault.
So your premise here is that, as in so many other things, it is the responsibility of other players to make the game fun for you despite the rules? Because pardon me, but that seems like a really terrible perspective to write rules intended to work across a national organized game from.

I mean, by that perspective, I should (as a player) have no qualms about throwing around danger close explosive traps in newbie mods, because it's clearly those players' fault if everything they own gets blown up and they have no real recourse to keep playing the game.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
My perspective is that one of the core rule designs is in the reliance on other people. Otherwise, why even have a class system? That inhibits the full possibilities of character customization, but it exists specifically so that we can rely on others. I suspect that same intention influences the production design, and in our greater need for production in 2.0.

If there was a character in our chapter that was regularly endangering new characters with a reckless use of traps, that character would be dealt with in-game, because some problems should be solved by the community. If your community doesn’t want to play that way, that’s on them, and I wouldn’t give such a chapter my money. :)
 

markusdark

Knight
No one is ever 'taken out of game' during a game. You may not be able to fight, to move or to speak but you're not out of the game. Now if we're saying that at Alliance game=combat, then yes, that happens. But I have been in multiple battles where I never swung a single blow and yet was (at least IMO) a positive contributor to the combat. I don't know if it is the rise of computer games or the way stories are written but it seems that the very first and only option people go to is to beat the problem to death. Whereas someone who is unable to swing, or even run, in a combat can still be an assistance to it. It requires creativity which I feel is only being taught as to how to do more damage.

In the last big fight I played in there was basically a light house that when the beam of light hit individuals, they were under a drain effect as long as that light was on them. So I took my cloak, held it up as best as I could and kept myself between the beam and the fighters as often as possible. Granted, I took a death at that encounter due to a bleed out in an imprison but since I only went to the circle once before, it was no big deal.

I also suppose that the chapter I play in is a bit more new player friendly as I brought a friend to his first game ever and by the time the game was over, he had over 7 gold from helping with various fights as well as (through the tutelage of an old timer rogue) a rather powerful magical weapon. Let it be known in ye olden days of 1992, it took me nearly six months before I got my first gold. But even being as 'ineffective' as a new player is, he still went out and got involved with stories and plots and did his best to immerse himself into the game. I will grant you, I have been to games where new players have been treated like outcasts because people hoard both resources and plot as if their fictional lives depended upon it but he had a great time at SF and it got him hooked forever on larping. My requirement of finding a generation replacement for myself is complete.

As an older player I would say not only would I be ok with item removal, I'd be OK if every magical item in the entire land of Fortannis suddenly lost their magic. I'd also be OK with a complete character reset after 25 years to everyone to beginning level again when 2.0 comes out. But I'm an extremist in these things - believing that the game is more about the experience than the experience points and that by leveling the field would do a lot to help infuse new player participation as well as being inclusive with everyone else who currently plays. And, in the long run, I feel it would enhance the game overall for everyone. (I know I'm in the very very small minority in this so no need to debate me in it - it will NEVER happen).
 

Muir

Fighter
No one is ever 'taken out of game' during a game. You may not be able to fight, to move or to speak but you're not out of the game. Now if we're saying that at Alliance game=combat, then yes, that happens. But I have been in multiple battles where I never swung a single blow and yet was (at least IMO) a positive contributor to the combat. I don't know if it is the rise of computer games or the way stories are written but it seems that the very first and only option people go to is to beat the problem to death. Whereas someone who is unable to swing, or even run, in a combat can still be an assistance to it. It requires creativity which I feel is only being taught as to how to do more damage.
Given that our rules explicitly are about combat and combat-adjacent crafting, and nothing else outside of a few out-of-place outliers like mental abilities that are explicitly RP-only, yes. Being put in a position to be unable to use the vast majority of the skills on the character sheet they're playing, until such time as someone who is above such petty things takes pity and gives them charity, is absolutely being taken out of the game. Otherwise they might as well be playing a parlor larp, which they can go do for a heck of a lot less of an up-front investment than than costuming and equipping an Alliance character.
 

Inaryn

Knight
So, little anecdote... at an event some years ago, I got heat exhaustion. I page'd myself out of combat. That meant that, as an Earth Templar, about half of my card was no longer playable. No sword, no shield, no claws, no fighter skills, no racial assassinate, no throwing alchemy, and no throwing any more of my spells or damage scrolls. It was, in fact, the vast majority of my card.

And yet, I still went on the nobility mod that occurred that evening... I grabbed a bag, threw in scrolls, potions, and some useful alchemy. I stayed a safe distance behind the party as they churned through enemies. And when they needed to tap out, they came (or were dragged) back to me for healing, refitting, and precasts.

So, gotta go with Shatter really isn't that big of a deal as an ability. It's up to plot not to abuse it, and players to think and plan around it. YMMV
 

Muir

Fighter
So, little anecdote... at an event some years ago, I got heat exhaustion. I page'd myself out of combat. That meant that, as an Earth Templar, about half of my card was no longer playable. No sword, no shield, no claws, no fighter skills, no racial assassinate, no throwing alchemy, and no throwing any more of my spells or damage scrolls. It was, in fact, the vast majority of my card.

And yet, I still went on the nobility mod that occurred that evening... I grabbed a bag, threw in scrolls, potions, and some useful alchemy. I stayed a safe distance behind the party as they churned through enemies. And when they needed to tap out, they came (or were dragged) back to me for healing, refitting, and precasts.

So, gotta go with Shatter really isn't that big of a deal as an ability. It's up to plot not to abuse it, and players to think and plan around it. YMMV
I agree, Shatter is definitely not much of a concern if you have a stash of production items lying around that you can go get! That is also utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I agree, Shatter is definitely not much of a concern if you have a stash of production items lying around that you can go get! That is also utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Yes, yes, the ability to solve Shatter through reserve resources is completely irrelevant to the discussion about the power of Shatter.
 

markusdark

Knight
Given that our rules explicitly are about combat and combat-adjacent crafting, and nothing else outside of a few out-of-place outliers like mental abilities that are explicitly RP-only, yes. Being put in a position to be unable to use the vast majority of the skills on the character sheet they're playing, until such time as someone who is above such petty things takes pity and gives them charity, is absolutely being taken out of the game. Otherwise they might as well be playing a parlor larp, which they can go do for a heck of a lot less of an up-front investment than than costuming and equipping an Alliance character.
Our rules, like a lot of other rules, are about how us as players can interact with one another and other things in the game world in a way we all agree to and what the effects/consequences of those actions are. So they're explicit about it so that everyone plays fair and safely. We have a lot of effects and ways to cause damage because we are a high fantasy based game but that doesn't mean that it is the end all/be all. But I do know our rules start off with the section of "A guide to roleplaying" which has nearly nothing to do with combat or spells. In fact, the entire beginning of the book has to deal with things that are not combat related. And if our rules were simply about nothing but combat, then the entire race section would just be the summary page of advantages and disadvantages.

I've always been at the low end of the power gap but have always found ways to work around that - from scouting around while others engaged in combat to being the guy who holds all of the healing potions in the back and pour them down the throats of the bodies brought to me or even being the one who brings the bodies to the healers.

And as for opting for a parlor larp instead, the same thing could say about just joining a combat only game like Amtgard so they don't have to every worry about being taken out of a fight.
 
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Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Hey @mikestrauss I remember being scared s_less of Shatter and Destroy. It was very dog eat dog. Being out of the fight for even 5 minutes (btw Prission was 1 HOUR) could mean your not maxing out for that event, which sucked when it was the only chapter around (wait Ravenholt was a thing). That's one of the reasons why my dwarf took Armor and Weapon smithing. I seen a need and everyone came to me. Was great charging 4 time production for stuff, that's unheard of now.
 
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