[.11] Weapon/Armor Duration (split from Packet Color Thread)

Accleates

Newbie
Oregon Staff
Of course. I absolutely understand that. I was just wanting to give a positive experience I have had with arrows. Honestly, when I arrived archery in general was pretty low on people's list, partially because of the arrow issue. I saw that and decided to have my character help correct that by providing them. I think that sometimes there being a need inspires great in game content.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I hate the idea of buying quivers for encounters.

Not all encounters are the same size. End up randomly fighting a couple of monsters thinking there’d be more? Tough. Burned a quiver for three shots.

End up fighting a large town battle for two hours? Don’t worry, your single quiver has you covered.

Neither of those are sensical. Plus, we don’t have a mechanical definition of an encounter, and I don’t think we want to start trying that (yet).
 

Mobius

Squire
(Pull this into the alternate thread if it's created)

I hate the idea of buying quivers for encounters.

Not all encounters are the same size. End up randomly fighting a couple of monsters thinking there’d be more? Tough. Burned a quiver for three shots.

End up fighting a large town battle for two hours? Don’t worry, your single quiver has you covered.

Neither of those are sensical. Plus, we don’t have a mechanical definition of an encounter, and I don’t think we want to start trying that (yet).
On the arrow-cache idea, ¿would some of your concerns be addressed if the quivers were for 10 minutes, like crit-attacks, but the Blacksmith could Meditate and replenish the cache? They scrounge the battle-field for fletching, arrow-heads, and cobble together a new batch for the next fight? It would level out the cost differential between big and short fights, not unduly hamper low vs high level characters. Archers could store multiple quivers for a fight if they think it'll last a long time and don't want to spend the time to find a Blacksmith and Meditate.

The PP price of a quiver could be relatively modest (assuming a 10-minute fight) so low-level smiths can still reach it without undue stress. The quivers can even be 5-day (the raw materials just fall apart from too much recombination), so they're still a net outlay of PP and coin.

It touches all the elements of arrow expenditure without messing about counting individual arrows. Blacksmiths would still be necessary for keeping archers armed, but logistics wouldn't need to worry about printing a thousand single-use arrows each weekend.


(ps. this was @Manflesh' idea, but I thought it was so great I wanted to toss it out)
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
That would introduce all sorts of new mechanics that I don’t think are necessary.

I’d like to point out something regarding the “hassle” of tracking arrows; it doesn’t appear to be prohibitive. Archery is really, really popular. Resource tracking is part of the game, whether it’s spells or tags.

We could definitely take steps to eliminate all tags using the argument “tracking is annoying.” But I think that would drastically change part of the game’s identity.

If tracking tags was so painful that nobody used Archery, I’d buy more into that argument. But it’s so popular that I can’t take it seriously.
 

Shades

Newbie
That would introduce all sorts of new mechanics that I don’t think are necessary.

I’d like to point out something regarding the “hassle” of tracking arrows; it doesn’t appear to be prohibitive. Archery is really, really popular. Resource tracking is part of the game, whether it’s spells or tags.

We could definitely take steps to eliminate all tags using the argument “tracking is annoying.” But I think that would drastically change part of the game’s identity.

If tracking tags was so painful that nobody used Archery, I’d buy more into that argument. But it’s so popular that I can’t take it seriously.
But arrows are the only tracked weapon tag. Swords don't degrade. Is it really realistic to say that shot arrows break 100% of the time? This has also lead to a bunch of rituals that can't be used by bows.

Look at it this way. If we were already in a state that arrows weren't tagged and were just part of the bow, there is no way that we would change the rules to make the arrows tagged.
 

PirateFox

Scholar
Swords don't degrade.
Some chapters do degrade/expire weapons, so that's not entirely true. Not saying they're right/wrong for doing it, just that it's a thing.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Some chapters do degrade/expire weapons, so that's not entirely true. Not saying they're right/wrong for doing it, just that it's a thing.
There’s no way anybody is going to amend their statements to include for weird LCO exceptions, man.
 

PirateFox

Scholar
There’s no way anybody is going to amend their statements to include for weird LCO exceptions, man.
Not an LCO thing. Just how the tags are written up without going LCO. This wasn't asking for a reworking of the universe, just making sure people are aware that's not a hard and fast rule that things don't expire.
 

Tantarus

Squire
Not an LCO thing. Just how the tags are written up without going LCO. This wasn't asking for a reworking of the universe, just making sure people are aware that's not a hard and fast rule that things don't expire.
Would you say it is a local chapter rule for denver? And maybe only denver?
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Not an LCO thing. Just how the tags are written up without going LCO. This wasn't asking for a reworking of the universe, just making sure people are aware that's not a hard and fast rule that things don't expire.
If the tags have an expiration date on items that do not expire, then it’s either an LCO thing or that chapter has incorrect tags that should be corrected (especially as that would affect treasure policy).
 

Lurin

Duke
Color discussion has gone well, and I'm a glutton for punishment, so here goes.

As the new head of logistics in Denver and person in charge of making these tags now, I have had a couple players ask if this policy would be continuing. I would love to be able to present something to my owner about this. Is there a place in the rulebook or other official documentation on how to Alliance that addresses production item durations?

We can make a new thread if this is going to get long and in depth.
It doesn't, quite literally, anywhere suggest things will have a limited duration. However the official tag sheets provided to chapters list an expiration date which has led many new chapters to develop their own policies. (For example in one chapter I've been to only weapons labelled 'dwarven forged' lasted indefinitely.
 

Mark of Chaos

Artisan
Denver Staff
It doesn't, quite literally, anywhere suggest things will have a limited duration. However the official tag sheets provided to chapters list an expiration date which has led many new chapters to develop their own policies. (For example in one chapter I've been to only weapons labelled 'dwarven forged' lasted indefinitely.
Is duration addressed in any manner in any official alliance document? Or just implied by the tags?
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
-The official tags issued to new chapters for at least some of these undefined duration items have an expiration field.
I'll throw one more item in the mix to add even more confusion :D There's no "official" tag format across the Alliance. A number of chapters can and do use slightly different formats for different tags, and even the tag format given to a new chapter (at least in the past) might be more related to who is sending the tag rather than any agreed-upon "official" format. In some chapters, the color of the paper is as significant an indicator as to what type of item it is as the actual printed info; in others, any color might be used for any item. Several chapters have eliminated the "expires" part of tags entirely.

Note that the closest thing to an "official" tag format used widely across Alliance (and probably the oldest format) *does* have an "expires" field for weapons, so there's that at least.

-Bryan
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
While I'd prefer we did not bother tracking item durability, I'd like bows & melee weapons to work the same. If we aren't modeling breakdown of live steel combat (and I've seen cheap swords be unusable after one combat), then why are we modeling the breakdown of arrows? I'd also rather see a "this weapon is usable for 12 logistics periods" type tag than the current model of trying to count individual arrows.
 

Mark of Chaos

Artisan
Denver Staff
When things aren’t clear cut, we have resources for that; either the Marshal forum or the ARC forum (the latter of which is probably better for this).

My question for you would be....when no clear interpretation existed, why weren’t those resources used?
Beats me, I've only been doing this for a month. I would hazard a guess though that anything not detailed gets left to each chapter to decide how to implement on their own, and the forums mentioned tend to be for things that are addressed but may have irregularities or are unclear.
 

JeffL

Newbie
Denver Staff
I agree with Feldor. Make weapons and armor consistent.
A) We have a system in which I can swing a sword 10,000 times and it will not break.
B) We have a system in whicha handful of blows makes my suit of armor useless. But then a blacksmith repairs the entire suit of armor in 60 seconds without using any resources at all. They don't need to carry anything. Not even tools, much less materials to use in the repair.
C) And then... we have a system in which I must track every individual arrow, carefully consider how many arrows will fit in a certain space and purchase more arrows from a blacksmith or get it from treasure (likely in place of other treasure).

Why do we put up with the absurd unrealism of A and B? Because it is not as fun for the majority of people to worry about tracking weapon durability (by strike, or battle, for example). It is not as fun to require that people with the Blacksmith skill carry a set of tools and a pouch of expendable repair materials.

I see that a few people in this thread are asserting that they, personally, find the arrow-tracking mechanism to be more fun, but... that isn't particularly compelling to me. I would love to see a vote where it was either "1 - Resource tracking for melee weapons, ranged weapons and armor!" or "2 - NO resource tracking for melee weapons, ranged weapons or armor."
 

Parzivel

Artisan
But Jeff, it's vastly harder to hit with a packet-arrow so you miss a lot more. How do we balance that against the vastly superior effectiveness of swords if we don't charge money for each arrow?

Edit: Maybe we should consider charging for sword repairs between games per swing?
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
The "expired" part of the weapon tag was intended for Magic weapons. It was to match the magic item tag. Both tags have an expiration date and magic item number on it to match them. The magic weapon physrep does not have the magic item number on it (that's why it's on the tag). The weapon tag is the most important as if you have that, you have the weapon (unless its linked/locked). Everything else can be reprinted.
 

Mark of Chaos

Artisan
Denver Staff
The "expired" part of the weapon tag was intended for Magic weapons. It was to match the magic item tag. Both tags have an expiration date and magic item number on it to match them. The magic weapon physrep does not have the magic item number on it (that's why it's on the tag). The weapon tag is the most important as if you have that, you have the weapon (unless its linked/locked). Everything else can be reprinted.
I would like to accept this, but I see an issue. You are telling me they modified tags specifically to have this field only for magic weapons, which are very much a minority of total weapons out there I would have to assume. But then there's no place for the item number, which seems kind the more important thing to include since it doesnt go on the rep itself. The tags dont match. The logic just doesnt feel like it stands up to scrutiny.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
No they didn't "modify" the tag. It was always part of the tag. I have weapon tags printed that are older than some players. This is something that has always been part of the weapon tag (well at least tags from 1996). They also were always purple. Then some chapters used different color card stock.

I dont find it hard to believe. Rules were different then. Things were different, a lot different.
 
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